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Josh Goldberg
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Posted: 20 March 2025 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

JB has been awesome (for decades) when it comes to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.
Not just racially.  Also in terms of religions, disabilities, different body types.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 March 2025 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Kinda saw it as my mission. If the specifics of a character were not, er, specified, I’d go for “minorities”, singly or in combinations.
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 20 March 2025 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 Jean wrote:
There is an idiot ex-Marvel editor who constantly espouses that 'minority' characters should only be written by creators from that same 'minority' - nonsense.

Again, it's degrees. If the book stars a minority character and their cultural experiences are part of the texture of the book, I'd say having an author of that same minority (in the small or larger sense) is better for the quality of the book. Even if you don't know as a reader that's going on behind the scenes! I only found out YEARS later that James Owsley was African-American, but as a tween I could really feel something different happening in his Falcon miniseries from 1983. Something about the way Sam spoke, something about the milieu and his interactions with it felt lived in in a way that few comics at the time did. As a result, that book lives in my memory far stronger than many of the couple of dozen comics I read in any given month, back in the day.
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Jean Voulis
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Posted: 20 March 2025 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Dave K - agreed. There is definitely something added when the creative team aligns with the character and can speak authentically.

I just don't like people who espouse absolutes (not you - I am thinking of this ex-editor). 

The Falcon has for example also benefitted from being written in Captain America, the avengers, and many more titles by great writers like JB, Engleheart, Michelinie, Stern, JM Dematteis, Brubaker and more.
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 20 March 2025 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

"There is an idiot ex-Marvel editor who constantly espouses that 'minority' characters should only be written by creators from that same 'minority' - nonsense."

--

Christopher Priest (formerly James Owsley) bore the brunt of that in the other direction. For years he tried out for gigs like Batman and Superman, only to be told that he was an "urban" writer and they kept giving him titles as such, instead. He was understandably miffed that he wasn't trusted to not write White characters as Black or something*. As he put it, he wanted to be known as a "Writer", not a "Black Writer".

*Ironically, Priest did get to write a single Batman arc during the late 80's - elements of which were adapted into the BATMAN BEGINS movie.


Edited by Vinny Valenti on 20 March 2025 at 10:01pm
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 21 March 2025 at 12:55am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

JB: "...Kinda saw it as my mission. If the specifics of a character were not, er, specified, I’d go for “minorities”, singly or in combinations..."


I honestly think you don't receive enough recognition for this. With Northstar, before you were allowed to state it in the actual comments, you made it plainly clear in interviews that he was gay. Kitty being Jewish, James "Rhodey" Rhodes, Amanda Waller, Puck, and Roger Bochs, all were you doing diversity before it was a thing in not just comics, but generally in mass entertainment.


Jean: "...an idiot ex-Marvel editor who constantly espouses that 'minority' characters should only be written by creators from that same 'minority' ..."


If that line of thinking was adhered to, there never would have been hardly any minorities written about in TV, movies, which helped lead to a general audience accepting diversity in those mediums. -- And does this editor believe the reverse is true? Can people of a "minority" write about those not in their minority? Such nonsense.

Dave Kopperman: "...If the book stars a minority character and their cultural experiences are part of the texture of the book, I'd say having an author of that same minority (in the small or larger sense) is better for the quality of the book...."


I don't disagree that a person of the same ethnic background adds dimensions one of that ethnicity would bring to a project, but does that mean that one has to be of that ethnicity to write the character, at all? Does JB have to be Jewish, black, or a little person to write about those characters? And while he may not be able to bring a personal experience in writing such a character, does that mean he has nothing valid to say or offer when writing the character?


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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 21 March 2025 at 1:01am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Vinny: "...He was understandably miffed that he wasn't trusted to not write White characters as Black or something*. As he put it, he wanted to be known as a 'Writer', not a 'Black Writer'..."


Definitely. Writers don't have to be rich to write wealthy characters, blind to write about sightless characters, superpowered to write about superpowered characters. Taken to the extreme, that is like saying a white writer can only ever write about white characters, and this presumably would mean even incidental characters, because it is considered racist or wrong to write characters of other ethnicities. Yet, ironically, the same charge would be applied to the writer for only writing white characters and never adding any diversity to his/her stories. 

It's ludicrous.  


Edited by Matt Hawes on 21 March 2025 at 1:02am
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 21 March 2025 at 1:46am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Matt: yah. I said that exact thing on the previous page - see my paragraph about Kitty Pryde - so you’re actually arguing my original point back. The distinction I’m making at the top of this page in response to Jean is that writing a character that HAPPENS to be thing X if you yourself are not thing X is not only fine but also a good thing, while writing a character who is thing X in a story specifically about being thing X benefits from having the writer also be thing X. Which is another thing you agree with. As far as I can tell, we’re completely aligned.

Edited by Dave Kopperman on 21 March 2025 at 2:13am
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 21 March 2025 at 3:58am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I missed your previous post, Dave. Thanks!
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ron bailey
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Posted: 21 March 2025 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

@Ron: Malcolm XSchindler's List, etc., are in a different category because they're explicitly and centrally about the experience of being a black man in mid-century America and a Jewish European during the Holocaust, and I DO think those types of identity-centered stories are best handled by people with a personal experience and cultural heritage of them. Theme and intent are key considerations in things like this.
......
@Dave: I may be spitting hairs and I believe we're largely on the same page here, and I don't want to contribute to too much thread drift, but I would argue those are classic universal tales of an individual looking for identity, man's inhumanity to man, and a man in search of the definition family, all of those in specific contextual tableaus. 
And Washington was actually responding to a question about his directing the film Fences, originally a play by prominent playwright August Wilson. 
I think the equivalent example in the MCU would be the use of the Black Panther. He was great as used by the Russo in Civil War, but the way Coogler and Cole fleshed out the character motivations and world building came from fresh perspectives and sensibilities that might have otherwise been overlooked. Doesn't make it right or wrong or better or worse, just a welcome addition to the palette. 
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Edward Aycock
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Posted: 21 March 2025 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

The 80s were a terrible time for me as a teen and I don't have the rose-colored glasses about them that so many have in retrospect. (Nostalgia is a longing for the way things never were) 

I would take any representation of a gay character I could get even if most movies and TV shows then only had them in relation to AIDS.  So Northstar holds a special place in my heart and when he came out around the time I came out in college, so many gay guys were like, "I been knew!" We didn't need it spelled out, I didn't need for it to be a gay writer.  It was good as is.  

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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 March 2025 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Since Shooter forbid me from revealing Jean Paul was Gay, I decided to play it as an “open secret”, of which Marvel at that time had more than a few. (At that time, Magneto being the father of Wanda and Pietro was one such.)

I knew if I played it right, readers—especially Gay readers—would be able to tell where I was coming from. Certainly I did not intend Northstar to shout “I am Gay!” in the middle of a fight!

Subtle as a truck.

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