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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 1  

There we go.

Kevin M. Hagerman, advancing the discussion via venn diagrams since, oh, about three minutes ago.

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Emery Calame
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 3:51pm | IP Logged | 2  

The definition to which you cite notes its a disparaging term and does not identify it as subset but a type of lawyer.

It doesn't identify a type. It identifies the qualities in a lawyer that make the term ambulance chaser applicable.  SEEKING CLIENTS AND ENCOURAGING THEM TO SUE instead of waiting for a client to contact them. That defines a subset of lawyers unless you think that there is a specific field of law that is based solely on seeking out clients and encouraging them to sue.

AL's quote seems to be about ambulance chasers being used interchangably with lawyer and it has some rhetorical merit but no real merit. Geoff seems to think that there are reputable tort lawyers that are not ambulance chasers so trying to hang him with the supposed broad brush of the site he quoted seems to be somewhat less than useful. (Sort of like tying Obama to Jeremiah Wright's sermons and his communtiy organizng wth William Ayers  is said to be less than useful.)
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Michael Retour
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 3  

Biden sure sticks his foot in his mouth a lot.  
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Geoff Gibson
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | 4  

The problem with your referring chart Kevin is that it does not reflect the reality of how people use the term or, in fact what the term means.  When people talk about ambulance chasers they are generally referring to personal injury, or tort lawyers, without drawing any distinction as evidenced by the definition Scott provided.  
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Brian Talley
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 4:01pm | IP Logged | 5  

Well known local lawyer.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62xreSr25uI&feature=relat ed

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Michael Retour
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | 6  

Loan titans paid McCain aide nearly $2 million

"Senator John McCain’s campaign manager was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations, current and former officials say."

What a surprise!
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Geoff Gibson
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 4:05pm | IP Logged | 7  

It doesn't identify a type. It identifies the qualities in a lawyer that make the term ambulance chaser applicable.  SEEKING CLIENTS AND ENCOURAGING THEM TO SUE instead of waiting for a client to contact them. That defines a subset of lawyers unless you think that there is a specific field of law that is based solely on seeking out clients and encouraging them to sue.

Emery:

What lawyer doesn't seek clients?  And if the lawyer feels there is a case worth persuing what lawyer doesn't encourage a potential client to sue?  The defintion makes no distinction Emery because the term does not make one.  If a patent has been infringed, the patent holder may want to sue.  Generally the patent holder already has an attorney so there is no call for the attorney to really advertise, though you better believe that patent lawyers make pitches for business and big firms advertise their patent business in business trades and the like.  Tort lawyers are no different, but their client base sure is.  Generally, tort lawyers represent people on the lower end of the economic scale who would not have a call to have an attorney on retainer.  The term is directed at ALL tort lawyers, and the term is intended to make them look bad.

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Geoff Gibson
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 8  

AL's quote seems to be about ambulance chasers being used interchangably with lawyer and it has some rhetorical merit but no real merit. Geoff seems to think that there are reputable tort lawyers that are not ambulance chasers so trying to hang him with the supposed broad brush of the site he quoted seems to be somewhat less than useful. (Sort of like tying Obama to Jeremiah Wright's sermons and his communtiy organizng wth William Ayers  is said to be less than useful.)

Al quoted the site Scott linked which attacks all personal injury/tort lawyers.  Did you notice in any of the "jokes" referenced where a distinction was drawn as to certain kinds of personal injury lawyers or was it directed at all personal injury attorneys?  Are there reputable tort lawyers?  Yes.  Most of them. 

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Scott Richards
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 9  

Kevin, thanks for the diagram.  That cracked me up.  :)
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 10  

Geoff, you are ignoring what is there to build a castle out of what is not,  Lawyers who LOOK for clients with adds in the paper and try to drum up lawsuits rather than being allowing the client to make contact  are what Geoff is referring to. The term is not directed at all tort lawyers and distinctions have been made in this thread multiple times. The term has a valid use for certain unethical tort lawyers and your pretense that it is inherently broad brush reference to all tort lawyers is unpersuasive to me.

The term DID make a distinction. You've just chosen to ignore it and pretend that placing an ad for a law firm for potnetial clients to see is the same thing as going to the hospital and seeing if an accident victim there who did not request his presence  wants him to sue  on contingency or placing an ad for people who have had contact with x or even live with someone who had contact with x to  see if they can turn it into a class action suit and the whole process was not started by a client who wished to sue.

If you want to get technical the phrase is most usually applied to someone who WORKS for the lawyer or law firm who approaches people who might be potential clients and tries to convince them to have the lwyer represent them in a lawsuit.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ambulance+chaser

In any case it is the means of drumming up business that makes one an ambulance chaser and not merely being a tort lawyer.

Al's site was lawyer jokes and seemed to be informal to say the least. It is a poor source of evidence that ambulance chaser is universal code for any and every tort lawyer.


Edited by Emery Calame on 23 September 2008 at 4:23pm
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 11  

"Either way, unless we presume all lawyers to behave criminally or unethically in the defense of their clients (or in the pursuit of a civil suit) then there is nothing wrong even with "ambulance chasers".

That's completely untrue.  "Ambulance chasing" is not allowed as it violates Rule 7.3 of the American Bar Association Model Rules of Professional Conduct. "

Completely untrue? The restrictions cited are justified by the presumption that direct contact offers of legal services might lead to intentional or unintentional unethical misrepresentations. 

Even then, the pursuit of business in itself is not wrong. And these restrictions seem to give people with little understanding of the law a severe disadvantage. I can understand the ethical concerns of the rule, but the idea that a person (unless already represented) must always seek representation that they may not know they need or might benefit from,  rather than being offered it, seems contradictory to a lot of other principles in law.

Why should it be that the victim of negligence (for instance)  is required to have a level of understanding of the law sufficient to fully understand that they are entitled to some sort of satisfaction, as well as the qualifications to know what kind of lawyer they need and where to find them in order to invoke their rights?

The rule seems to prohibit a lawyer from informing a person of their legal rights unless already contracted to do so. This analogy may be a bit of a stretch, but it's sort of like telling a doctor that he can't help somebody who is critically injured until they specifically ask him to.

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Scott Richards
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Posted: 23 September 2008 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | 12  

When people talk about ambulance chasers they are generally referring to personal injury, or tort lawyers, without drawing any distinction as evidenced by the definition Scott provided. 

Geoff, maybe you like these definitions better?  They point to the opposite conclusion from what you state.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ambulance%20Chaser

Main Entry:
ambulance chaser
Function:
noun
Date:
1897
: a lawyer or lawyer's agent who incites accident victims to sue for damages
ambulance chasing noun
 
 
ambulance chaser
 
am·bu·lance chas·er (plural am·bu·lance chasers)
noun 
 
Definition:
 
1. lawyer benefiting from accidents: a lawyer who, in order to earn large fees, seeks out accident victims and encourages them to claim heavy damages ( slang disapproving )
 
2. overly aggressive lawyer: a lawyer considered to be overly aggressive and perhaps unethical ( slang )
 
 am·bu·lance chas·ing noun
 
 
ambulance-chaser Definition
☆ ambulance-chaser (-c̸hās′ər)
noun
Informal a lawyer who tries to gain clients by encouraging accident victims to sue for damages
 
 
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.  2000.
 
ambulance chaser
 
NOUN: Slang 1. A lawyer who obtains clients by persuading accident victims to sue for damages. 2. A lawyer avid for clients.
 
 
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