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Michael Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 December 2004
Posts: 831
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| Posted: 20 September 2008 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | 1
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QUOTE:
| Considering the depth of the Quagmire the US is in now, perhaps
they should switch to "pull yourself up by your own hair" (like in the
Baron Von Munchausen story) |
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Knut, your country has an even larger percentage of its real GDP tied
up in public debt than America; and foreign debt investment is crucial
to any economy like that of Norway. Since July, the Norwegian exchange
of the Oslo Bourse has dropped more than 30 percent.
Meanwhile, both the European commission and the OECD forecast low
growths rates of only 1.3% for the Eurozone as a whole and technical
recession for Great Britain (not a member), Germany, and Spain.
France, current EU president, saw its economy actually contract 0.3% in
the last quarter and is pushing for a series expensive measures to be
adopted when finance ministers meet in Nice in the middle of next
month...even if it means busting the aim of a 3% budget deficit limit.
As a whole the Eurozone saw its economy contract by 0.2%.
China, Japan, Russia, and India all face slowing growth.
Why talk about hair-pulling?
Edited by Michael Myers on 20 September 2008 at 11:51pm
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Michael Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 December 2004
Posts: 831
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| Posted: 20 September 2008 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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nixed, too many posts...
Edited by Michael Myers on 20 September 2008 at 11:48pm
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Michael Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 December 2004
Posts: 831
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| Posted: 20 September 2008 at 9:38pm | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
| Myers will get a kick out of that right Mike because Tremonti is nuts right? |
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Well, I think you're crazy, does that count? Since I think the guy's a fascist though, let's run it down.
Tremonti is the same cat who proposed "economic miracles" for Italy in both 1994 and 2001 promising to half the unemployment rate via massive public works programs. Both times he orchestrated a deterioration in Italy's public finances via a protectionist agenda resulting in ultra-low economic growth and high public spending. Tremonti has now been "Minister of Economy and Finance" in Italy for five of the seven years that combined position has existed. What does Italy have to show for it?
Well, the International Monetary Fund forecasts growth of 0.3 percent in 2008, just a fifth of the rate last year. Italy's *own* central bank has cut its economic growth prognosis for 2008 and 2009 to 0.4 percent, or virtually zero growth; while, Italy's July inflation rate was the highest in 12 years. Italy is ranked last in terms of labor productivity, a measure of economic growth and competitiveness, among the 30-member Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. To put this in perspective, average incomes in Italy are already 20 percent below the average of the industrialised countries of the OECD. And, last but not least, Italy has an outstanding national debt which stood at 104% of its meager real GDP at the beginning of 2008. Yeah, he's done a great job in the past.
In April, Tremonti blamed Italy's ills on everything but Italy and native Italians. In his "The Fear and the Hope", released just prior to the election, he suggested flag-raising ceremonies to enhance national identity because, “It is small and simple things that count because they are the only ones that people really understand.” His book concludes by calling for the creation of an authoritarian, national-conservative order.
Sound familiar?
Edited by Michael Myers on 20 September 2008 at 11:51pm
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Jeff Alan Hays
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2007
Posts: 133
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| Posted: 20 September 2008 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | 4
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"Who you have to surround yourself with to get elected isn't the same
thing as who you'll surround yourself with after you get elected."
One of the reasons I can't imagine being in politics. The compromises and necessary associations. I don't think any of them are free of this type of thing. But it may explain why so many of them seem to change after they get elected. And you can only hope the 'change' is in line with your interests.
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 21 September 2008 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 5
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Tremonti is a fascist? Do the Italians knows this? Considering Mussolini I'd think that they would be adverse to that.
The reason you dislike him is because he doesn't like the free market. He is against globalisation. So?
You've read his whole book from 2008? No you didn't.
Authoritarian? That's a pretty ridiculous statement considering the
authoritarian actions taken this week to attempt to salvage a bankrupt
monetary system.
Schwarzenegger I'd consider calling a fascist. I am sure I'd get agreement from people in California on that one too. The Chicago Boys that installed Pinochet were real fascists Mike but you'd deny that. All were economists trained at the Chicago School and all were monetarists that loved Friedman, Hayek, etc. What were the fascist dictator's policies Mike? Dergegulation. Privatization. Pinochet killed people Mike. Pinochet tortured people. The US backed him. So who's the fascist?
If I was with LaRouche Mike I'd be singing about it. I read these things with letters in them called books. One I read was by Lincoln's economic adviser and you'd object to him as well I can assure you. Is that too outdated for you? Carey? He'd be called authoritarian by you but you don't attach a definition to the word. I read the Perkins book too. Plenty of others as well. Galbraith's one on financial euphoria. Even more. I love to read. Sorry, Mike you don't have to be with Lyndon LaRouche to read books that debunk your theories on economics, GDP, GNP, the BLS fakery, etc.
Calling people fascists, nuts, etc. doesn't strengthen any argument you have (I don't think you have one either). Tremonti is about as much a fascist as Dave Letterman.
The only nuts are the people who got us into this mess. Those would be?
Let's just see if time proves me right. The bailouts won't work Mike. It isn't a business cycle. You learned that. It didn't spring from your head like Athena from Zeus. You were told this is how it works and you swallowed it and you know it.
You have an ideology not the truth. You have theories Mike. That's all they are and they failed a long time ago. Before you were born they proved themselves failed but you cling to them like a child.
Apparently institutions have become weak kneed Mike. Banks. The Fed. The present government. Etc. Candidates too. We're in trouble Mike and can you tell me when the business cycle will turn up again? I am going to tell you the bailouts won't work. Nothing short of FDR-style reforms will work. It's too late for band-aids.
Let's see who is right because time will prove one of us wrong won't it?
Edited by Michael Retour on 21 September 2008 at 10:00am
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 21 September 2008 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 6
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Just for you Mike:
Lyndon LaRouche responded today to the proposed bailout legislation
from Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, by issuing a firm "no." "No
bailout can be permitted," LaRouche declared. "Freeze all the
speculative paper, for purposes of auditing. If you go with any kind of
bailout, you lose control over the situation." LaRouche explained,
"Congress has got to get ruthless with these swindlers. I am afraid too
many members of Congress are owned, outright by the likes of George
Soros and Felix Rohatyn. I don't think Congress, collectively, has the
guts to act on behalf of the American people."
LaRouche demanded that Congress has to "scare the Hell out of these
characters. They have been looting the American people blind for the
past thirty years or more. They have sent people off to jail, because
they dared to get in the way of their thievery. Now it is time to turn
the tables. This is not the time to make nice deals. This is not the
time to be reasonable.
"The nation is being screwed. These guys don't have anything coming
to them. Poor people have been denied health care because of these
swine. Let's start frog marching them off to jail, where they belong." Is that authoritarian enough for you? I am sure that if the candidates running for office proposed such a policy most Americans would cheer. You're not suggesting that brokers, banks, etc. haven't committed crimes have you? ENRON? Do I need to list the outfits that got away with it? Just the crimes the government has allowed certain companies to get away with during this Iraq war ought to be enough to send a couple of people to prison don't you think?
Thanks for pointing out LaRouche for me. I like the way the guy thinks!!
Edited by Michael Retour on 21 September 2008 at 10:07am
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Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 21 September 2008 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 7
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"Why talk about hair-pulling? "
As a light-hearted comment to Jodi's post about "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps". As pulling oneself up by ones own hair suggests a greater depth.
I know the Norwegian economy is facing difficulties during this crisis, too. In fact, in the neighboring municipality they basically went bankrupt investing in bad US debt, because of poor financial advice (and poor judgement from the politicians who made the decision to invest). Unfortunate, but what's your point?
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6808
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| Posted: 21 September 2008 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 8
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Well, I think you're crazy, does that count?
Real nice Michael M
'Bad enough, but the nonsense you listed is just nutty from ANY economic standpoint.
What do you do exactly?
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 22 September 2008 at 1:16am
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 21 September 2008 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 9
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Myers how about FDR? He a nut too? Authoritarian? A fascist? You know his speeches on the "economic royalists" don't you? Now did LaRouche write those for FDR? I told you a long time ago I was a FDR Democrat and that is it. To the extent old Lyndon is proposing FDR-style measures to save the 10s of 1000s of foreclosures, of people being tossed into the street I support those actions. So what?
Here is a snippet of what FDR said about certain people. Sounds like Tremonti to me. You?
"For out of this modern civilization economic royalists carved new
dynasties. New kingdoms were built upon concentration of control over
material things. Through new uses of corporations, banks and
securities, new machinery of industry and agriculture, of labor and
capital - all undreamed of by the Fathers - the whole structure of
modern life was impressed into this royal service."
If I remember the regulations that have been dismantled were put in place because the "economic royalists" were robbing everyone blind and crashing our economy. FDR acted with authority, lol.
Same thing as today Mike. You are just dead wrong about everything you say.
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Jeff Alan Hays
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2007
Posts: 133
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| Posted: 21 September 2008 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 10
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As passionate and detailed as M. Myer's and Retour's arguments have been, I think it would be helpful if criticism concerned something other than post length.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6808
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| Posted: 21 September 2008 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 11
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I think it would be helpful if criticism concerned something other than post length.
Jeff and yet you had no problem with Michael Meyers post :
Every stat? Michael, what the fuck would you know about reading any statistics?
you posted 3 posts after it with no problem with him saying that.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 22 September 2008 at 1:18am
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 21 September 2008 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 12
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"More recently, instruments that are more complex and less
transparent--such as credit default swaps, collateralized debt
obligations, and credit-linked notes--have been developed and their use
has grown very rapidly in recent years. The result? Improved
credit-risk management together with more and better risk-management
tools appear to have significantly reduced loan concentrations in
telecommunications and, indeed, other areas and the associated stress
on banks and other financial institutions." -- Alan Greenspan, 2002
I guess Alan has a little egg on his face.
Enron was engineering black-outs in California. Is that really news? Energy trading was exempt from regulation. Does everyone know that? No. Well, now those reading do. Prices in California spiked 3000%. Enron manipulated 38-40 something black-outs. Wall St. traders did this and they belong in prison.
Myers doesn't like this sort of fact being exposed so he calls people that expose it fascists, nuts, etc.
Deal with the issue Mike. Enron. Deal with the dereg that allowed Enron to get away with it. You can't possibly argue it was a good thing so you say nothing.
Same with the healthy part of our economy. WHAT IS THE HEALTHY PART? Give me some hoked up stat. I don't mind. I can tear it to shreds.
McCain supported a lot of this crap. Obama wasn't there but I suspect he might have gone along with it considering some of the company he keeps. What they will do as president I don't know.
Don't let Myers fool you either. The bailouts are not about saving your home from being foreclosed but about saving some bankers. Their credit default swaps are of major concern. Paulson wants immediate action to protect the banks. What about the people? How about health care? How about immediate action on that? I'd like a several trillion dollar bailout of the health care system for Americans. How about Detroit? Let's bailout them too. At least making something is useful. What use is a credit default swap and Myers no amount of your Econ 101 is going to convince anyone of your position so you might as well just call me nuts.
The hell with the bankers. Put it into receivership and sort it out later. Let them eat their derivatives. Save the people from losing their pensions and homes.
Paulson now says these were irresponsible actions but who allowed them? Huh? Bush and Co. The same liars who told us there were WMD all over Iraq and to date we have found none but 1000s of American soldiers are dead and 10s of 1000s are wounded, their lives shattered because Bush lied. Now, if Bush lied about the war would he lie about the economy? Who did you vote for Myers? Kerry? I rather doubt it.
You can't name one sector of the US economy that is healthy. In all this time. You come up with fake numbers that show "growth" but there is no growth. There is a lot of rot. Where do you live? You know how many bridges need repair? You don't. You don't have a clue about it. You know how many roads need repair? Ask the engineers. They issue reports too. You read those or do you confine yourself to the fake ones you tell me I've never read? I actually find more truth in the comic books I read than government stats on the economy. The government is lying. Now, they're desperate to ram this bailout through. Desperate because they know what you haven't said you know is true.
Mike you thought you were the eminence grice of the Forum on economics huh?
Shall I hold my breath for that one sector of the US economy that is healthy? Get out your fake stats and read something off to me.
Tell me the fundamentals are sound as the institutions crumble.
Edited by Michael Retour on 21 September 2008 at 11:31am
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