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Michael Myers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 December 2004 Posts: 831
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 1
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Erik wrote:
| College education SHOULD be free and WAS free for years. That's why OTHER countries are out competing us--because THEY "get" how important education is--and we don't. |
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You're opinion is yours, but why should college be "free" and when was this ever the case in America? The tuition schemes of the nineteenth century never equated to a free education at taxpayer expense and failed miserably by any measure.
Other Countries? The latest IMD report would argue otherwise, as would simple stats of the world economies. In the case of the European IMD yearbook, the results are drawn from an extensive survey of 323 criteria, ranging from gross domestic product growth and exports to technology per capita ownership and high school graduation rates. Criteria includes hard numbers pulled from sources such as the United Nations, the World Bank, the World Health Organization, and the International Monetary Fund. Only Singapore comes close to matching the US across the gamut, and more power to them...just as we bumped Japan off in the early nineties.
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Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 2
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I took it that Erik was referring to other countries out-competing the U.S.
educationally, not economically, Michael.
Erik?
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Michael Myers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 December 2004 Posts: 831
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 3
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Dig, Geoff. I had honestly failed to grasp the distinction you were drawing.
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | 4
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LOL. Over the top reaction coming from you is priceless
Based on multiple off-line conversations, I know how many of us feel about Scott Richards, but for any of you who felt he add anything signifigant to add to the conversation, may I present the above, and note that it is his reaction to being informed that he made a mistake at basic reading comprehension.
Ladies and gentleman, what more needs to be said?
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Geoff Gibson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 5
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Geoff, when I was a kid, my mom went to CCSF for free - by the time I started in 1991, (while still in high school) it was $3 a unit, and by the time I left to transfer to SFSU, it was $30 a unit.
Okay, see here's the distinction. That is a state (or city) school. In that regard its not significantly different from local public school districts. Your state (or City) choose to offer that service, likely with some Federal Assistance, but not in the form of total federal subsidization. That is a big difference from what Scott suggested (albeit inaccurately) which is nationalized free higher education. The idea that college was "always free" is, I think, therefore disingenuous. It may have always been free in certain cities or states for citizens (e.g. taxpayers) of those cities or states but there was no national free higher education (beyond scholarships, or grants or the like) or guarantee of free education in other states, cities, towns, etc.
Edited by Geoff Gibson on 11 September 2008 at 1:38pm
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Geoff Gibson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 6
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Dig, Geoff. I had honestly failed to grasp the distinction you were drawing.
More than likely, my failing, rather than yours!
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Michael Myers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 December 2004 Posts: 831
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 7
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At your prompt, I went ahead and pondered it, Al...I'm not certain, now, what Erik was saying.
I understood his qualifier to the effect that because we lack a completely subsidized higher education, the US is somehow being 'out competed' by other nations in the general, economic sense. Given the general tenor of this thread, I tend to jump the gun on this subject; so, if I was mistaken, I'll happily concede my point as unrelated.
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Geoff Gibson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | 8
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I read it the same way you did Michael. Reckon that means we need us some clarification!
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 9
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Oh, oh, Geoff, we're getting off track on this (due to following flawed information up front) - what I'm talking about, and what Obama's talking about, and what you're talking about is the Community College system.
Universities will still be free to charge whatever, though under Obama's plan, there will be a bolstering of financial aid to lower-income students.
See, there's subtleties to this that's lost on some knee-jerk reactions. Obama is not promising to send homeless people to harvard - he's setting right what's been set wrong - institutions that have been made avaliable to the public for free will once again be made free. And there will be reasonable financial access to other organizations.
And somehow that's marxist socialism. I mean, if you're going to call it that, if you're going to apply words to things even if the definitions or meanings of said words do not apply, you may as well call his plan Penutbutterfish and bananashelf. It's as much that as it is Marxism.
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Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 10
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I'm not really certain now either, Michael. I took him to mean out-competed
educationally, but I totally get why you saw it the way you did. Maybe he'll
pop back in sooner rather than later and help us out.
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Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 11
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So where do you stand on Peanutbutterfish Bananashelf, O'Brien?
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14890
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| Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | 12
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I understood his qualifier to the effect that because we lack a completely subsidized higher education, the US is somehow being 'out competed' by other nations in the general, economic sense
---
I read his statement more that free college educations and more competitive students are indicative that other countries place a higher priority on education than the US.
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