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Pete Turley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 111
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | 1
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First page of the rolling stone article, I love how they have a picture of obama looking friendly, with a freakin' white halo/aura around his whole body.
Hillary looks like an confused/angry old lady getting ready to keep your frisbee just because it landed on her roof.
Good times!
Oh, and before I get put on the All Star Super Happy Obama Loves Everyone Squad list, I'm actually a Republican. Go McCain '08!
Pete
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Geoff Gibson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 2
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Mike:
Brooks point was that McCain is his own man and is not (as portrayed by some in the media) reckless when it comes to the waging of war, illustrating how McCain's diplomacy will be one of American involvement because it is appropriate for the interest of Global Peace not simply american interests. I cannot do it justice, read it. I agree McCain is a solid conservative -- in the way Barry Goldwater was. But "tax cuts for your rich friends" is not entirely right. Its tax cuts for everyone.
I say this about Obama -- I think he is very liberal and will tax the hell out of me. I am not convinced that his solutions are the right ones, because inherent in his ideology is that Government can be a solution. I don't generally find that to be the case as I find Government solutions create more beauracracy. But I think he is a good man (and thats just based on personal opinion I can't support that by fact) and there is a value to inspirational leadership. So if he is elected I think he will have that going for him.
I too am a proud Irish American, but save some of that Irish pride! One head of state signed Adolf Hitler's condolence book. That man? Eamon DeValera. Sigh.
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Geoff Gibson
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Joined: 21 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | 3
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(then I see this bogus "Wright" scandal blow up and realize... uh, maybe I should hedge my bets...)
I don't think its entirely bogus Mike! Wright said some pretty terrible things and Obama has pointed to him as a friend and a mentor! Whats funny is Obama's defense, effectively, "if you knew the man you would forgive the words" was the same defense defenders of Don Imus made last spring. Senator Obama called for his firing. I'm just sayin' . . . . . .
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Kevin Hagerman
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Joined: 15 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 18349
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 4
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- Don Imus should not have been fired. If you can't ignore something, maybe you should pull out your eyes and plug your ears with them.
- I am laboring long and hard to give a crap about Rev. Wright and for the life of me I just can't.
- We had a good couple months talking about issues though. Consider it practice for the day this nation grows up.
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 5
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"I too am a proud Irish American, but save some of that Irish pride! One head of state signed Adolf Hitler's condolence book. That man? Eamon DeValera. Sigh."
Er, I never said we were a terribly smart people...
I kid, I kid!!
By the way - Obama also called for Pastor Wright's resignation, too, so... uh... whare are we going with this?
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36482
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 6
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When did he call for his resignation will be the question in some people's minds, Mike. Did he voice this opinion before all this hoopla erupted or was it only after people made a big stink about it? Not that it matters all that much to me, but that is a valid question.
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 18 April 2004
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Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 7
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Well, considering that he heard about it the same time the rest of us did - note here, there's a subtlety missing from this whole arguement - Obama is, perhaps, being a tad too intellegent and literal with this whole thing - Obama is reacting to specific 9/11 comments - which he didn't hear at the time. A lot of (white) people are reacting to the very idea that a black man dare be angry, and use hurtfull words. (*ahem*)
So, he heard about the 9/11 bits the same time the rest of us did. And it's those that he's reacting to.
Which will be lost on the general public, I'm sure...
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Geoff Gibson
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Joined: 21 April 2004
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 8
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Mike:
How do you know Obama only heard the 9/11 comments recently? I have
not heard that. We do know that Obama had heard other things said by
Wright that could be understood to be anti-jewish and anti-white
because Obama said as much. Obama knew, for exapmle, that Louis
Farakhan (sp) was honored by Wright. Louis Farakhan is a rabid anti-
semite.
So with Wright its more than just the 9/11 stuff Mike -- and Obama said
as much in his historic speech last week. He said Wright has said other
things with which he disagreed. He also said he had addressed his
disagreements with the Reverend on those issues. I happen to agree with
Obama, by the way, that people say stupid things and you should judge
them on their entireity as a person not just their prejudices or stupid
comments. But to say its a non-issue seems naive to me. He has
referred to Wright as a pastor and a mentor. Mentor's and pastor's teach.
We do not always agree with those teachings but we listen and our views
are often informed by those teachings. This is why it is an issue. And I
think its fair to raise it.
I raised the spector of Imus only because of the similarity of Obama's
defense of Wright to the Imus' apologists defense. Obama called for
Imus' firing without concern for whether Imus was a racist or not. At that
time why did he not apply the stand he wants us to apply to Wright? The
answer, I believe in my heart, is because Obama is human and he, as we
all do, was prepared to believe the worst and not consider whether the
statements displayed the truth of the quality of the man or were an
insensitive bad joke. So my point is that he failed to do what he is asking
us to do.
In the end I don't mind that. That he has issued that challenge to all
Americans, of any race and creed, is what is important. We SHOULD
consider a person for who they are, rather than what the may have said.
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Mike O'Brien
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | 9
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Uh... I think he was pretty clear in his speach - which you're even referencing - he heard lots of stuff, but the specific comments that are being replayed over and over? He only heard later.
Not sure where the disconnect is on this.
And you know, as John McCain noted - considering that Obama has never done anything that would show that he agrees with the things you find so offensive... doesn't that kind of kibosh the whole "teaching" angle? Seems like a bit of a desperate stretch to me.
I mean - we're all taught a version of history in school that white-washes history and sugar-coats it - a fairly racist thing to do - do we hold this against any of our white candidates? No, we don't.
Even if you're right about Wright being a teacher - he's a spiritual teacher, not a political one. What's more, are we really suggesting that Obama is so foolish to fall for anything a preacher tells him? Obama's whole life and work point to an intellegent man. I think he'd be able to process the things the preacher said without becoming a mindless zealot and repeating them.
Nope. Still not an issue.
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Mike O'Brien
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Joined: 18 April 2004
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Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | 10
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And, wait - here's the thing - Obama didn't condemn Imus as a person, nor does he condemn Wright - but he did call for both to resign. Sure Obama is human - but this isn't an example of it.
But also? I don't think that either person should have resigned. I think people know what they're getting from Imus and I think Pastor Wright brings up angry but interesting points.
An addendum to my reply to you.
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Geoff Gibson
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Joined: 21 April 2004
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 11
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Mike:
Attached is a link to the text of Obama's speech. Where does he say the
first he heard Wright's 9/11 comments were the video snippets that have
been played ad infinitum? I'm not disputing that that may be the case but
its not in the speech.
My point, and the reason the Wright brouhaha has become an issue, is
that one of the ways we judge people (and candidates) is by who the
associate with. If John McCain were dear friends with David Duke would
that cause an uproar? Of course, it would (and justifiably so in my
opinion). Remember the reaction to Trent Lott for his comments in about
Strom Thurmond? He said we needed more Senators like Thurmond. This
caused such a reaction that it cost him Majority Leader status. While not
on all fours with this issue, it is a similar situation: someone a candidate
associates with has views that people of find objectionable. And whether
the candidate shares those views becomes a matter for concern. It is,
therefore, fair to ask whether the candidate shares those view. I know
Senator Obama does not. In none of my posts will you find any inference
that I think he does. If you read any comments I have made about him
you will see they have been glowing. But I disagree that his relationship
with Wright is a non-issue. It is a fair question that the electorate should
ask. I think Obama has demonstrated that he does not share those views
so the issue should be closed, but to say it was never issue (which I don't
believe you have said) is not fair.
The reason its is an issue is because Obama has acknowledged his close
relationship with Wright and (to his credit I might add) he has not
disowned him which would have been easy to do. But it is entirely fair to
ask whether someone who has had as profound an impact on Obama as
Wright has (by Obama's own addmission) has colored (pardon the pun)
Obama's views. Moreover, as I think you know, Wright did not restrict his
sermons to his congregation (of which the Senator was a proud member)
to matters of spirtuallity. Social issues, and political issues were part of
his sermons as well. Obama noted that in his speech. So the question of
influence is similar to the questions of influence raised when discussing
any people in the life of a candidate.
Turning to the issues of resignation Wright only resigned from Obama's
campaign when the speeches were made "public." Obama never asked
Wright to resign before that -- and he knew the things Wright had said
before running for President. From the "Speech" :
"For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an
occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of
course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered
controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many
of his political views? Absolutely "
I submit you may be missing, or dismissing my point (and please don't
read this as criticism) because of your support and, justifiable belief in
Obama. I share that belief, despite some ideological differences with the
Senator's politics. But to dismiss the Wright issue out of hand as you
have is not, entirely fair. The impact a mentor, friend or advisor has on a
President is important.
"A More Perfect Union"
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Kevin Brown
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Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 9126
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| Posted: 28 March 2008 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | 12
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Geoff, you do fully realize that the part of the speech the Wright is getting the most grief over was of him QUOTING another person. The words people are damning him over are another man's words.... (I believe I pointed this out earlier, but not 100% sure.)
Here's who Wright got those words from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/meet-the-white-man- who-_n_92793.html
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