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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 23 March 2008 at 8:14pm | IP Logged | 1  

I haven't read the Wolfe book... is the phrase "drink the Kool-Aid" used to mean buying into a belief system and/or deciding to follow a specific leader?   If so, is there a negative connotation to the whole thing, an idea that said belief system or leader is being followed unthinkingly and perhaps doesn't deserve to be followed?  That's how the phrase is most commonly used today, and I'm pretty sure that all came about post-Jonestown.  It sounds like "Drink the Kool-Aid" in Wolfe translates roughly into "Pass the test" and has a positive connotation.  Whereas post-Jonestown it means more like "To blindly follow a foolish/unworthy idea or leader."

I'm surprised to find that people associate the phrase with things other than Jonestown.  I don't recall for sure the first time I saw the phrase, but as far as I can remember I've always associated it with Jonestown and assumed that was the source of the phrase.  Most of the time I see it these days the association with Jonestown is pretty overt, as it's often used to imply a leader has a cultlike following.  

Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 23 March 2008 at 8:17pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 23 March 2008 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | 2  

I haven't read the Wolfe book... is the phrase "drink the Kool-Aid" used to
mean buying into a belief system and/or deciding to follow a specific
leader?   If so, is there a negative connotation to the whole thing, an idea
that said belief system or leader is being followed unthinkingly and
perhaps doesn't deserve to be followed? That's how the phrase is most
commonly used today, and I'm pretty sure that all came about post-
Jonestown. It sounds like "Drink the Kool-Aid" in Wolfe translates
roughly into "Pass the test" and has a positive connotatio

---

It meant buying into LSD and the LSD lifestyle, which would probably be
positive for Ken Kesey and his LSD advocates, but fit those negative
connotations perfectly for those opposed to the LSD lifestyle.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 24 March 2008 at 12:31am | IP Logged | 3  

"Find one issue where he agrees with Republicans and do you seriously think the Palestinians would cease their attacks if Israel completely withdrew to the 1967 border? Israel was under constant attack from 1948 to 1967 before they occupied the West Bank and Gaza."

Seriously? No, I don't. I think most of the Palestinians want ALL their occupied land back. But the International Community has recognized the 1967 borders, so anything beyond that is more controversial. But then again, many Israelis want ALL of the occupied territories (or even all of Palestine) to be a part of Israel (without the Palestinians, of course) so it's not like the Israelis recognize the 1967 borders and the Palestinians don't.

And it's funny how things change. Prior to 1948 Palestine was a territory that had been subject to disputes and colonial hegemony for aeons and was looking forward to the self-rule promised by the Britons as they were leaving. Instead they got  an invasion by a bunch of mostly European illegal immigrants who claimed Palestine as their ancestral homeland. Thousands of Palestinians driven from their homes by an army of foreigners. Frightened and terrorised.

From the Palestinian perspective, the Israeli settlers were the terrorists. And the Europeans supported them out of their collective guilt for the Holocaust or their self-interest in seeing the problem leaving their shores.  

There are differing perspectives on the beginnings of this conflict, but they are mostly irrelevant, because right now you have two peoples claiming the same land. Neither wants to leave and neither wants the other to continue to live there. Changing THAT attitude into one of begrudging tolerance and co-existence is what matters. The historical context is, however, useful for pointing out that it's not as easy as saying that the Israelis are the good guys and the Palestinians the Bad guys.  



Edited by Knut Robert Knutsen on 24 March 2008 at 12:32am
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Scott Richards
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Posted: 24 March 2008 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 4  

If I heard a black man, preacher or not, saying the things that preacher said, I'd think, "Fair enough".

That made my eyes bug out.  Hate speech is not acceptable.  Ever.  Period.

Wow.

That definitely puts a new spin on the way I read every one of your posts.



Edited by Scott Richards on 24 March 2008 at 7:40am
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 24 March 2008 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 5  

Yes, in fact, you should follow your own advice and go find a new chuch, then.

 

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Brian Hunt
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Posted: 24 March 2008 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 6  

Rev. Wright made a lot of inflammatory statements that are not uncommon to religious leaders, and not uncommon amongst a size able segment of the Black American community.  If one steps back for a second and examines those statements through the lens of the Black experience in America, it's not hard to see were those sentiments originate from. Most people know that the government is not responsible for the creation of HIV, but the legacy of unethical government backed research in the Black community is still present.  It is troubling to me as a Black male that the Tuskegee experiment ended in my lifetime (only 35 years ago).  It's not ancient history! Segregation and Jim Crow ended in my parents lifetime, and the lifetime of some of the members of this forum.  Black Americans constantly have our patriotism questioned, despite the fact that we serve in the armed forces at a higher rate per ca-pita than non-minorities. Before wholesale condemnation can be made against men of Rev Wright's generation, we have to remember what they have lived through.  I disagree with his opinions and his sentiments, but I am reminded almost every day were they come from. That's what's missing among Obama's critics.  Their personal experiences provide them with no context for the conversation that he wants to take place.   As many regular readers of this forum know, I am non-religous so breaking association with the church in question is a no-brainer for me.  But large church organizations are about more than just their pastors.  They are about fellowship and friendship amongst the congregation.  They are about seeing and interacting with the same group of people week after week, many of whom disagree with their pastor on a wide range of issues. 
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Donald Miller
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Posted: 24 March 2008 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 7  

Brian,
I would argue that Jim Crow is alive and well and I would warn to watch for it in the coming elections...They call it caging and it is scary.

That being said, when valid complaints are couched in reactionary rhetoric it only serves to make things worse.  The higher road as a route takes longer to get there, but I believe it will get us there more safely  and more securly in the end.

Don
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Brian Hunt
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Posted: 24 March 2008 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 8  

That being said, when valid complaints are couched in reactionary rhetoric it only serves to make things worse.  The higher road as a route takes longer to get there, but I believe it will get us there more safely  and more securly in the end.

I agree 100% Don. 100%.

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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 24 March 2008 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 9  

Yes, and that's the road Obama is taking, despite what his preacher, and the media have said. 

 

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 24 March 2008 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 10  

Thank you Brian for articulating my feelings about Wright.
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Scott Richards
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Posted: 25 March 2008 at 6:39am | IP Logged | 11  

Yes, in fact, you should follow your own advice and go find a new chuch, then.

It's a bit frightening that you call yourself a historian when you attribute something I didn't say to me in your response to me.  I hope you research your political choices a bit more carefully than you pay attention to whom you are replying.

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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 25 March 2008 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 12  

Touche!  It was some other histronic person with no grasp of real race relations who said that.  You still aren't impressing me with your hissy-fit, though.

Keep trying!

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