I was specifically thinking of Gore and Kerry.

QUOTE: <<I'm probably at odds with most of you, because I really don't have too big of a problem with Bush's foreign policy.  In my eyes, it's his domestic policy that is a shambles.>> What foreign policy do you NOT have a problem with? It was, and remains, a complete mess. There seems to be no domestic policy to speak of.

Well, see above.  Afghanistan was clearly the right thing to do, Iraq is a mistake that we now need to see through to the end, Korea seems to have been temporarily resolved, Israel/Palestine is the same as ever, Russia is a growing threat that would have happened regardless of who we had as president.  Lots of countries are annoyed with us, but so what? 

The domestic policy I do have a problem with, and Bush's SUCKs.  I can list off just as much crap he's pulled as you can.  The only mitigating factor is that (1) Congress is equally culpable, and (2) the other candidates for president would have had domestic policies just as bad or worse, just in different ways.

QUOTE: <<My quick evaluation: Bush:  Muddled, well-meaning, incompetent. Hillary:  Competent, evil. Obama:  Competent, idealistic, (but still wrong.) McCain:  Competent, kinda scary.>> Please... I really would LOVE to hear the explanation of how HILLARY is evil(and again I do NOT support her) based on evidence/track record/accomplishments or lack thereof... and Bush and his cronies are NOT?

This was flippant on my part.  Hillary is not evil, she's not a Mussolini.  Maybe it would be more accurate to say "She's like Bill Clinton, but not as virtuous."  This is partly a personal reaction I get from watching her, partly from seeing how she's debated and conducted her campaign, partly my reaction to her stands on political issues.  She seems more amoral than anything else.

QUOTE: <<I've always thought the best government we can get is an ineffectual, paralyzed one.  God save us from a government that gets things done.  That's why I like having different parties in the Executive and Legislative branch, so that gridlock ensues.>> Huh?

Basically, domestically, I think both parties are dragging the country down, just along two different paths.  That's why I think it works best when they are at a stalemate.  The nation that governs least, governs best.

QUOTE: <<(In every way but national defense.  We need to have a competent military... and we do.)>> Yes... our military is amazing... the best... but you DO realize that it is NOT the weapon, but the person that aims it and pulls the trigger that does the damage. That whole "Commander-In-Chief" thing seems ot carry SOME weight.

Don't disagree.

Keith!  I think we agree.

I agree that we were good going into Afghanistan - but I am staunchly opposed to Iraq - though here's where we part ways; it's been pretty clearly explained that it wasn't an accident we went in there.  That's the juice behind the whole Valerie Plame story - her husband provided proof that our claims were false, and in retaliation, members of the office of President outted his undercover CIA wife as revenge.  

What's more - I'll grant this - let's say we were in there for a bad reason - but we can leave.   Mission Accomplished, as someone said - Sadaam out?  Yes.  He's even been tried and executed.  Free elections?  Check.  A few times now.  Terrorists swarming Iraq?  Funny part?  There weren't any there before we invaded!  Sadaam was an evil nut but one thing he hated were religious fundementalists.  What's more, how many of these terrorists are Al-Queda, and how many are Iraqiis who just want us the hell out?  Who want electricity and running water (without worms in it) like they had before the invasion?  (Five years ago!  If we were invaded five years ago and I still didn't have basic living necessitites back, I'd be attacking the invaders, too!)

And on top of all that, why are our soldiers fighting terrorists?  Shouldn't that be the job of something like the CIA?  Isn't that what they're there for?  Our soldiers should be fighting soldiers. 

I think, party differences aside, you and I, and most Americans feel the same about things.  We want to be safe and happy, and we want to be proud of America, but to me, it's clear that what we're currently doing in Iraq, good intentions, bad intentions or just simple mistake, is a very wrong thing.

Just saw this headline on Fark - a reference to the classic movie Idiocracy:

"71% of Republicans and 52% of Democrats would be less likely to support Obama after hearing his pastor's remarks. Now back to your regularly scheduled "Ow, My Balls""

And on top of all that, why are our soldiers fighting terrorists?  Shouldn't that be the job of something like the CIA?  Isn't that what they're there for?  Our soldiers should be fighting soldiers.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If there are terrorists to fight I'd rather have the guys with the weapons and the training to use them doing it rather than the guys trained to gather intelligence.

What better ways?

Thousands of undercover covert operative agents with the job to kill, not capture, the terrorists.

Keith,

I think it is clear we are never going to agree on these points, so I am not going to go point by point/tit for tat. Though you do raise some issues that are frequently brought up when addressing the current President, and the war. Glad to know we agree that going in Iraq was a mistake, and I agree that striking at the Taliban in Afganistan was where our focus should have always been if the we were declaring a "war on terror". That leads to my confusion when I hear politicians, and civilians, say that we have to stay in Iraq until the job is done. I am not sure what that means? Until there is peace int he Middle East? Until Sunni and Shiite get along? Until we wipe out all the terrorists? I am not meaning to be flip, but we have declared a war on TERRORISM... what constitutes victory in that war? What hill needs be taken? WHICH bad guy toppled? I watch as the 10 Billion dollars orginally designated for the war in Iraq has grown to 500 Billion and counting, and I am not sure how much safer I feel. Plus, at the risk of sounging like a liberal Democrat Commie Pinko... what could we be doing with that money here in the USA? Re-building roads in Iraq(which we blew up)? Hell I drove through a pot hole in my town that rattled my fillings.  Our military, as  brave and honorable as the man in women serving in it are, are FAR weaker than they have been in a long time.

Anyway... we are just going to disagree. Back to the funnybooks.

Howard