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Tom French
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 1  

Well... no.

At least DC recognizes domestic partnerships (which is more than can be said for a lot of other states).  As I've stated before, though, that has all the romance of signing a piece of paper -- but at least it's a start.

What pisses me off about the Defense of Marriage Act is the shadiness inherent in its creation.  The sliminess of "defining" marriage to purposefully exclude a particular demographic that isn't popular -- in the words of Stephen Colbert -- doesn't show a lot of balls. 

What's comical, however, are the stupid arguments to defend it.  My favorite being the "slippery slope" bit -- "If we let gays wed, what's to stop a person from marrying their PET?" -- as if the two are remotely comparable. 

All that DOMA is to me is fear on paper.  A back-handed, weasly attempt to legalize prejudice. 

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 2  

"If we let gays wed, what's to stop a person from marrying their PET?"

---

Dogs and cats can't sign a marriage license... duh!
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Tom French
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 3  

My dog is GREAT with paw prints!!!
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 4  

Tom,

I hate to say this, but I have long believed that had Clinton not signed DOMA, we'd have a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage today!  A statute can repealed or amended by a future Congress or struck down by a federal court.  It might take years or even a decade or two to accomplish, but it is a LOT easier than repealing a constitutional amendment.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 10:56am | IP Logged | 5  

I wonder if the just-published UCLA report that the gay marriage ruling will
boost the California economy by $683 million and 2,100 jobs will convince
other states to follow. I can see the wedding industry and divorce lawyers
forming a lobby to overturn gay marriage bans in other states.
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 6  

Michael,

I hope that doesn't happen.  I keep reading those articles about the "financial boom" from gay marriages/weddings/divorces/tourism etc., in the SF Chronicle and I find them offensive.
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Tom French
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 12:08pm | IP Logged | 7  

...but it is a LOT easier than repealing a constitutional amendment.

I'm not the guy to be addressing this -- where's Geoff when we need him? -- but I'm pretty sure that CREATING a consitutional amendment that inhibits anyone's rights would be pretty hard to do, hence the whole nonsense of "defining" marriage.

I'm still not gonna applaud the Clintons for DOMA or "don't ask/don't tell" -- they're both fundamentally flawed. 

edited to add:  I guess I should say "ALL fundamentally flawed" because I feel the Clintons fall into that category, too.



Edited by Tom French on 15 June 2008 at 12:09pm
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Tom French
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 8  

...with the traditional slew of post-election pardons?

Didn't he already give out his ration of Medals of Freedom?

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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 9  

Tom,

I couldn't disagree more.  There is nothing that both parties claim to champion more than the near-sacred First Amendment.  The House has consistently passed, by MORE than the two-thirds majority needed, the Flag Desecration (anti-flag burning amendment)... the Senate failed to do so by ONE vote the last time it voted, and FIFTY states have petitioned Congress to do so.  If they will repeal for the first time in history a first amendment freedom; what makes you think they won't ban gay marriage!?!?

Remember, this was a battle that first took place more than a decade ago, I reallly do suspect all that prevented an anti-gay marriage amendment to the US Constitution was DOMA. 

You don't think they would have had the ratification of 38 state legislatures??  Think again, to date 41 states have laws and/or state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage.  Many of them, even going so far as to ban domestic partnerships and civil unions.

Please tell me you don't underestimate the power of the right in this country.  That would make you more dangerous to our side than they are.


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 15 June 2008 at 12:19pm
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 10  

Er, Marc, no offense, bud, but you may be looking at that in a kind of naive way; fact of the matter - everything is run on money, and Michael is on to a good idea - if money can be made off gay marriage, it'll become a perminant American institution.

The Money factor over-rides the Religion factor.

Now, look, I see where you're coming from - your potential personal experience is being talked about like a commodity - that sucks the romance out of it, sure, sure, but in order for there to be the possibility for such a thing, we need to make sure it still can happen, and if it's bringing in money...

It's like... global warming.  (Yes, I just dropped that fart into the room)   Since I recently moved, the vast majority of radio stations where I now live are conservative (I did finally find NPR, so there's one non-conservative station) so I've been listening to that for a while now - and I find it odd that so many of them are so concerned with smashing the "lie" of global warming.  It's a huge thing to these guys - and it's funny because when I listened to left wing stations - no one was talking about global warming.  It wasn't an issue on the table for discussion, but these right-wingers are popping blood vessels making sure we all know it's a lie and if we listen to said lie, we'll be killed by Jesus or something.  (I can't follow these nuts paranoid rants.  I think that was the threat...)

Now, I'm no scientist - I don't have an informed opinon one way or the other about global warming, nor do I care about it.  I'm happy to let scientists work it out, and I'll do whatever - put my cans and bottles in the blue bin or whatever.  It's off my radar.

But having said that - I saw the Al Gore movie, and it made some interesting points, and showed some interesting observations, and in the end of it, they had this flyer (wasted paper?) that listed what you can do to help the planet - did it say that we need to go live in a teepee and forrage for nuts and berries and look like wild cavemen?  No.  It said, buy those twisty lightbulbs.  Carpool when you can.  Try walking or biking to work once a week.  Put your cans and bottles in the blue recycle bin.  Do your laundry at night.

I mean - it was insane - the right wing is acting like Al Gore is going door to door collecting first borns to rape and eat, but really, all the guy is suggesting is a few things that are so absurdly simple and not any sort of problem.

So!  (finally, the point comes!)  Why are the right wing radio guys so up in arms about global warming?  Because corporations will have to do business differently, and it will, in the short term, affect their bottom line, and they will not stand for it.

And so, the talking points for Global Warming were created, driven by money, or the potential loss thereof, and were handed out to the radio stations for discussion.

Marc - like it or not, money drives everything.  Do you know why we're the only civilized first world nation to not provide health care for our citizens?  Because there's more money to be made the way it's done now, and people with said money hire lobbyists to flutter around the Capitol, making sure our elected officials never put any sort of health care reform on the table.  You know why illegal immigration is such an issue?  Because if they were legal, corporations would have to pay them the minimum wage.* How many guesses do you need about why we're in Iraq?  Or why Halliburton was allowed to destroy and rebuild New Orleans?

It's ugly, but it's all about money.

 

*The fucking minimum wage.  A wage that says "If I could pay you any less, I would"

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Tom French
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 11  

As I said, Marc, I'm not really the guy to talk to about this.  Not a lawyer, don't play one on tv.  Don't know much about consitutional law -- except how to spell it. 

On the other hand, what tickles me about the flag-burning amendment is they're really out-lawing INTENT.  Flags are properly DISPOSED of by burning (the boy scouts have been doing it for years), so it's not the burning of flags that's illegal -- it's WHY one would burn them. 

Idiots.

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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 15 June 2008 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 12  

Mike,

I find it DEEPLY offensive.  Nothing in your rationalizations changes that. 

I encourage you to start talking about money driving the civil right movement the next time you are at an NAACP convention.  Or maybe you want to buy in the rhetoric of the right-wing and say the right to choose is all about money for Planned Parenthood and selling baby-parts for research?


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 15 June 2008 at 12:35pm
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