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Didier Yvon Paul Fayolle
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 January 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 5252
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| Posted: 12 June 2008 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | 1
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I would not be so sure about that..., Geoff...
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Michael Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 December 2004
Posts: 831
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| Posted: 12 June 2008 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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Neil wrote:
| "You know what Mike? You are correct. By a single clause
written eighty years ago, the area is technically under Cuban
sovereignty. So, when Cuba demands that their laws are upheld and for
the prisoners to be released for legal trial, I am sure the US
government will support it and release them." |
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Not "by a single clause written eighty years ago", Neil; but, rather,
under the weight of some two-hundred-odd-years of American
jurisprudence and a large chunk of English Common Law as formerly
understood. The question of sovereignty is central both to the legal
question of habeas corpus recourse, of itself, and to the legal
question as held by the ruling of the Supreme Court of the United
States of America.
This was my take on, for instance, Scott's comments. But then, you
aren't truly interested in (and don't seem to fully appreciate) the
significance of this decision...beyond, of course, the slightest
opportunity for rebuke of the Bush administration and some bizarro
extrapolation of another member's fairly straightforward post.
Neil wrote:
| "C'mon, it is a US base on foreign soil. On hostile foreign
soil. The idea that it is not American soil is an abstract which they
have exploited to allow them to ignore the US Constitution. I am sure
that it is just a coincidence that they decided to build the prison
there, outside of the laws of the US. Too scared to actually face a
real court, they hide under legal quirks." |
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Legal quirks? Are you kidding me? The question of recognizing in foreign nationals the potential recourse to seek habeas protection on foreign soil may
be boiled down to little more than the Bush administration playing up a
"legal quirk" and getting smacked down? The possible redefining of sovereignty
in a heretofore unrecognized 'de facto sense' and the as-yet-undefined scope of the SCOTUS decision...and all its
ancillary repercussions...is just the end result of an "abstract" notion? Get a clue.
According to some nuts in this thread, even the notion of affirming the
potential for such protections should be an impossibility in America.
The always vociferous "America is myth" crowd.
Neil wrote:
| "Under the rules they have set up, he is not born in
American soil and is therefore a Cuban? Does he have to apply to become
an American or is it granted automatically?" |
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Neil, the inns-and-outs of jus soli and jus sanguinus
are a tad mystifying, but you're cool to comment on the relevant interpretation of long-standing legal
theory as it pertains to the question of sovereignty? To dismiss the question as a "legal quirk"? Right. This is exactly my point concerning some of the off-the-wall
comments that fly in this thread.
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Michael Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 December 2004
Posts: 831
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| Posted: 12 June 2008 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 3
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Definitely don't read any of mine, Neil. I don't know shit.
__________
'Easy on the wounded sparrow routine, Al.
Besides, you do know how to tame a polar bear.
Edited by Michael Myers on 12 June 2008 at 11:39pm
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4946
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| Posted: 13 June 2008 at 12:25am | IP Logged | 4
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Michael, I will admit I know shit about foreign bases or the legalities of such. I just know that they are not bringing these people to the United States to avoid them being tried under American law and it pisses me off. If they are so sure of their guilt, why not let it go to trial, instead of locking them up in a foreign country with almost no chance of defending themselves? I have no problems if they are guilty. Hang the bastards. Give them a fair trial first though.
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4946
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| Posted: 13 June 2008 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 5
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Oh, and I always listen to Al. He is always watching. Can't you see from his avatar? You don't want to get him angry.
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12736
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| Posted: 13 June 2008 at 6:08am | IP Logged | 6
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Self deprecation and leaping at the chance to play along with Canadian jokes
is a long way from wounded sparrow, Michael. You give yourself too much
credit.
It was all in good fun!
(And Neil, it's you that I'm watching. All the time.)
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Scott Richards
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2005
Posts: 1258
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| Posted: 13 June 2008 at 6:35am | IP Logged | 7
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So Scott, you have no problems at all with people grabbed from other countries and brought to American soil, given no due process, being tortured (maybe, who knows?) and held with little or no evidence and with no chance of ever proving their innocence or guilt, except in a military court which refuses the defense access to evidence?
Not when they are terrorists, no. The people in Guantanamo aren't just normal civilians.
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Scott Richards
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2005
Posts: 1258
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| Posted: 13 June 2008 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 8
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"You don't mind your tax dollars paying for benefits for someone who is
here in violation of the law?"
-----
Far more of my tax dollars are currently being siphoned off by corrupt
officials half a world away who hate me and my country. I'd like to see that hemhorraging stopped before I start worrying about the guy picking grapes for two dollars an hour.
It's not the picking grapes for $2 an hour that is the problem. It's the free health care, free education, etc. that our tax dollars pay for illegals. If not a single penny of tax dollars was spent in any way, shape or form for illegals, I would have no problem with them coming to this country. My beef isn't them wanting to escape and become Americans. My beef is paying for them.
If the Amnesty Bill were to pass, it would cost us even more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snpc21XjUG4
Edited by Scott Richards on 13 June 2008 at 6:44am
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Tom French
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4154
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| Posted: 13 June 2008 at 6:42am | IP Logged | 9
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The people in Guantanamo aren't just normal civilians.
No, they've been accused of a crime. But -- regardless of whether they're an American citizen or not -- don't they deserve the right to defend themselves against the charges? Aren't they human and deserving of human rights? If they're guilty, they're guilty -- do with them what must be done. I have no issue with that. But to simply waste away in a prison with no hope of ever being able to answer the charges against them... well, that just doesn't sound like AMERICA to me.
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Kevin Hagerman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 18101
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| Posted: 13 June 2008 at 6:48am | IP Logged | 10
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Not when they are terrorists, no.
----------------------
There's the rub. How do we know they're terrorists?
A lot of those in Gitmo were literally rounded up, turned in by fellow Afghans for a reward. If you were in a rival tribe of someone who had the U.S.'s ear, and your dog liked to shit on their lawn, well guess what? For now, you're a terrorist.
Six years and no end in sight.
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Scott Richards
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2005
Posts: 1258
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| Posted: 13 June 2008 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 11
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Perhaps the US should institute a no prisoners policy and just kill all enemy combatants? Would that be preferable? I think they are better off at Gitmo than dead, no?
I'm almost ready to say we should give the Middle East exactly what they were asking for. I've said it before, but, if we pull all US citizens from the US and stop supporting Israel, the problem would solve itself. Israel would nuke the rest of the Middle East and then there would be peace. Problem solved.
And Michael, thanks for articulating what I couldn't. I'm not a legal expert so couldn't make things as clear as you have been able to do. To me, it just felt completely and utterly wrong.
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12736
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| Posted: 13 June 2008 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
So Scott, you have no problems at all with people grabbed from
other countries and brought to American soil, given no due process,
being tortured (maybe, who knows?) and held with little or no evidence
and with no chance of ever proving their innocence or guilt, except in a
military court which refuses the defense access to evidence?
Not when they are terrorists, no. The people in Guantanamo aren't just
normal civilians. |
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Question for Scott Richards:
How was it determined that they were terrorists without due process and
little or no evidence?
Edited by Al Cook on 13 June 2008 at 6:58am
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Topic Closed)
