The guy who told me I was going to hell sounded really satisfied to have enlightened me

Kevin I got one of those too, but I was going to hell with Hussein. :0)

The thing is being a pro environment, anti war democrat, on these two issue, we want to be wrong, we want to believe that when republicans say, there isn't global warming, I hope they are right. And when they said attacking Iraq will make us safer, yep I hoped they were right about that too. And I will go so far as to say, I hope the god squad is right and there is a heaven and it's a really cool place.

But they were wrong about Iraq and I just don't have the patience to see if they are wrong about the environment. And I will not be supporting Senator Evan Bayh D-Indiana because he was one of the few Dems to vote down the Global warming bill.

I honestly am not a right fighter, I know it seems that way. As I said before I am just a mom that loves her kids so much, that the world the republicans are creating is just way too scary. 

Just a side note, I did not vote for Hillary because she did not vote the right way concerning Iraq.

Weeeelll.... first off, we've been telling Iraq that they need to get their act together in terms of self-defense for a while.

Second - they do have self-defense - while I'm not discounting rogues and terrorists, a lot of the attacks on us over there are the average people who just want us out and want running water and electricity like they had before we invaded them.  If the average citizen are well armed enough to take on our troops, I think they can handle religious terrorists.

Finally - another chunk of the people we're fighting over there?  It's the people that were kept in line under Sadaam.  They had the force to keep these nuts in line before we came in and broke things, they can have that power again.  It can't be that hard. 

We supply them with munitions, funds, basic needs (that we took away) like running water, electricity, and we get our soldiers the hell out of their problem.

There's a degree of us running from responsibility here - if we broke it, we should fix it, but on the other hand... the soldiers who are dying out in that desert?  They're not the ones who broke it. 

Mike:

I understand all that, though I don't know that the "average citizens" attacking our troops would be, necessarily, model citzens were we to leave.  Many of them would attack the foundations of government.  I think we need to set some benchmarks (not necessarily withdrawal dates) to get the Iraqi government moving in the right direction.  As for the former Republican Guards (which I assume you are referencing), I'm not 100% sure that they would support the government, but certainly they would getting them involved is an idea.  Many of them though were uniformed thugs and I don't think you want those guys empowered again. 

Believe me, if I could waive a wand and stop the bloodshed I would (hell I've lost family to the war) but I'm not sure a withdrawl is the best way to fix the problem.  I can understand those that do, though, and I'm all ears.

Friedman is bang on there, Geoff! Thanks for the post and links.

I think he's almost always good reading.  The guy is brilliant. Even when I don't agree with him I find myself nodding my head a lot!

I think he's spot on about Obama too.  I think it is one of the things that makes Obama such an attractive candidate.

One of the reasons supplied by many for staying in Iraq is to establish a pro west democracy, but history is not kind to such attempts.  The thing about democracies is that people don't always elect the leaders that you or I like.  In all likely hood, a democratic Iraq will elect a fundamentalist conservative government. The Shiites and the Sunnis are fighting each other on religious grounds, and one group is larger than the other.  Guess which direction any elected government is going to lean?

 Keep in mind that this is a country were polls indicated that the average citizen thought it was okay to attack American forces.  An open ended time table for withdrawal makes you an invader.  What is needed is a concrete achievable objective that once completed will be followed by the exit of our forces.  For example, once the basic infrastructure of the country has been restored (i.e. the electricity is back and hospitals are open).

What is needed is a concrete achievable objective that once completed will be followed by the exit of our forces.  For example, once the basic infrastructure of the country has been restored (i.e. the electricity is back and hospitals are open).

I agree with just about everything you wrote Brian -- particularly how democracies are unpredictable.  One of the major blunders entering this war was that we thought we'd be treated as liberators -- but there was no organized resistance to the regime in the country!  Who was going to greet us? The expatriates we brought back?  As for what to do now I think you need more than just the electricity and hospitals.  I think you also need a stable military/police force of some kind. Setting dates to meet these goals is fine.  Arbitrary withdrawal dates without these objectives seems shortsighted to me. 

These people had "a government " before we did , why can't they handle setting up their own government now. Putting in a puppet government is not the answer, didn't work in Iran.  Our problem is, we just may not like what they come up with.

I say pull out NOW, I heard the same excuse during Viet Nam.

Let me ask you this, look at the picture below, tell me who you would be mad at, if they did this to your child, your own government or the US that did it?

For now, though, what it reveals is how much many foreigners, after all the acrimony of the Bush years, still hunger for the “idea of America” — this open, optimistic, and, indeed, revolutionary, place so radically different from their own societies.

Not just foreigners, Geoff.  We here in America want America back, too. 

I think Mike, thats why Friedman wrote this:

That’s the America that got swallowed by the war on terrorism. And it’s the America that many people want back. I have no idea whether Obama will win in November. Whether he does or doesn’t, though, the mere fact of his nomination has done something very important. We’ve surprised ourselves and surprised the world and, in so doing, reminded everyone that we are still a country of new beginnings

I think he was including America too.  At least thats the inference I drew from the above.

No, I agree - just using that line to stress a point.

Also - while we're at it - here' Jodi fighting the dragon: http://hotair.com/archives/2006/10/29/video-oreilly-on-oprah -bill-takes-on-military-hater/

OH MY GOD!!!!!   I am famous!!!!! I had no idea that was out there. I have to say I did sound shrill, I was so nervous I was sweating bullets.

I love that I am under the heading Hot Air, YES!!!!!!!!!!