Actually, that's crazy talk; I take it back.

But they would have impeached Kerry.

This invasion, this clown of a president, the propagandist, and the gullible people that supported it really have got what they wanted, and now have buyers remorse. Did anybody really believe that a privileged, failed business man, drug addict, C student could pull off, let alone conduct something so complex as nation building? What in Bush's history led anybody to believe he could competently even run a dairy queen? In my most pessimistic moods I wish we could have an Iraq mess tax that only applied to those that voted for Bush, also while we are at it, all that thought this was such a great idea and "plan" would now enter their kids into the military to contribute to cleaning up this huge unnecessary mess. I realize this would be un-American, yet I have been so frustrated by the incompetence and blind enabling that I wish some of the paper patriots would put their money where their mouth is and start to ante up for direction they have taken America and the world. I should stay out of this thread, or subject because I can not talk about it without becoming mad. I applaud the thread civility, sorry I can't contribute to civility on this subject. 

Teod, Thank you so much for this post. Before we went into Iraq I protested the war in my city, walking thru about 2 feet of snow, with about 50 other people, all the while people yelling as they drove by, "Hey if you hate the US go to Russia!"  and "Fuck you"  Never understood the Russia thing, but I knew they didn't think I should be in the US.

I wrote letters to the editor pointing out the wrongs about this war. Yeah that got me some really great hate mail.

I wrote all my elected officials, which they responded with some great form letters.

I cried when the first US solider died and I cried when I saw the first picture of a child with half her leg because she was in the wrong place in Iraq.

I lost friends over my "anti American" stance.

I was even invited by Oprah to her show to confront Bill O'Reilly about the issues of the invasion.  Which I did and pretty well I think. Almost every producer from her show came up to me after the show and thanked me for saying what they couldn't. They said they were proud I didn't back down.

So Teod, again thank you!

Tom Friedman's article on the "Obama Effect" is pretty good.  But then Friedman is always good.  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/opinion/11friedman.html?ex =1370923200&en=feb1364cb6870ac2&ei=5124&partner= permalink&exprod=permalink

Some excerpts:

"It would not be an exaggeration to say that the Democrats’ nomination of Obama as their candidate for president has done more to improve America’s image abroad — an image dented by the Iraq war, President Bush’s invocation of a post-9/11 “crusade,” Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo Bay and the xenophobic opposition to Dubai Ports World managing U.S. harbors — than the entire Bush public diplomacy effort for seven years.

Yes, all of this Obama-mania is excessive and will inevitably be punctured should he win the presidency and start making tough calls or big mistakes. For now, though, what it reveals is how much many foreigners, after all the acrimony of the Bush years, still hunger for the “idea of America” — this open, optimistic, and, indeed, revolutionary, place so radically different from their own societies.

That’s the America that got swallowed by the war on terrorism. And it’s the America that many people want back. I have no idea whether Obama will win in November. Whether he does or doesn’t, though, the mere fact of his nomination has done something very important. We’ve surprised ourselves and surprised the world and, in so doing, reminded everyone that we are still a country of new beginnings."

I don't get people who can't stand reading a contrary opinion, or who think they have a patent on what's American when their defense of what they think is American seems manifestly un-so.  I got wonderful messages from people when I had an atheist letter printed in the local paper.  The guy who told me I was going to hell sounded really satisfied to have enlightened me.  Whatev.

Friedman is always good.

***

I second that!

Whereas the majority of NYTimes editors and columnists were set against Bush from the start, at least Friedman tried to see the other side, tried to give the benefit of a doubt that maybe something good could be wrought in Iraq.

He sure did!

Also, you have to appreciate that he goes to places he writes about for months at time over a span of years. He's a ground-up op-ed'er!

I think your scenario can work if the government is stable and there is an capable self defense network (e.g. Army) but I don't think either exist as Iraq is presently constituted.  How do we get to a stable government and capable army if we just up and leave?  Thats the question.

Weeeelll.... first off, we've been telling Iraq that they need to get their act together in terms of self-defense for a while.

Second - they do have self-defense - while I'm not discounting rogues and terrorists, a lot of the attacks on us over there are the average people who just want us out and want running water and electricity like they had before we invaded them.  If the average citizen are well armed enough to take on our troops, I think they can handle religious terrorists.

Finally - another chunk of the people we're fighting over there?  It's the people that were kept in line under Sadaam.  They had the force to keep these nuts in line before we came in and broke things, they can have that power again.  It can't be that hard. 

We supply them with munitions, funds, basic needs (that we took away) like running water, electricity, and we get our soldiers the hell out of their problem.

There's a degree of us running from responsibility here - if we broke it, we should fix it, but on the other hand... the soldiers who are dying out in that desert?  They're not the ones who broke it.