Jodi Moisan wrote: How can being lied to by those in the white house not excuse democrats for voting the way they did concerning the Iraq invasion. Colin Powell fell for it.

C'mon, Jodi.  As big a Democrat as I am, I refuse to believe the innocent, doe eyes that the Dems cast when asked about their vote for the invasion of Iraq.  They're backpedaling and blaming the opposition so fast I'm surprised most aren't in leg casts. 

I totally agree that much of why we are where we are is due to the "us vs them" mentality.  That mentality paints one side, whatever side you're on, as the one in the "right".  The "right side" seldom, if ever, wants to take any blame and always, without fail, casts the "wrong side" as the villains.  I'm sorry, but it simply can't be that black and white.  Never is especially where politics are concerned.

You seem like a good egg, Jodi, so I don't want you to think I'm jumping down your back, but I'll always jump in no matter who is commenting when a person paints their political party in such black and white, good and bad, terms.  "Us vs Them" gets us nowhere and is exactly why we are in the god awful mess we are in today.

Do I really have to dig up all the quotes from people in the Clinton Administration saying that Iraq had WMDs? Were they lying too?

At one time Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, I believe it was the Americans that gave it to them, because there was a problem with Iran. That is not a fact I am debating, but the Bush adminstration knew full well, those weapons had been destroyed.

But when you can point out that the US invaded Iraq during Clinton , I will say you are right.

Ever since Kuwait, Saddam had been locked into a Hitler Lite status - easy to hate, easy to bash for short-term points, and in the end, harmless when he wasn't trying to control more oil than we were comfortable with.  Remember when Saddam trotted out one of the Americans stuck in the country after he invaded Kuwait?  he sat this little shell-shocked boy on his knee.  The media went FUCKING NUTS.  The spin was that he was cruelly mocking us and showing that this innocent little boy's life was at his mercy.  I thought then and I still do to this day that that photo-op was intended to be a "Hey, I'm a Nice Guy" moment that a rabid press would not let flower.  The fix was in - Saddam is a bona fide, FDA-approved nogoodnik and we're gonna smack the taste out of his mouth.

In the years after, the bashing became the modern equivalent of Cold War rhetoric.  EVERYONE talked up Saddam - they treated Stilt-Man like he was Galactus, to put it in comics terms - Dems and Repubs alike.  Which led to the easy quote-parade used to "debunk" those opposed to the Iraq War (never mind that none of the others quoted had acted on them as Bush stupidly did).

SOOOOO many votes to use force were done for political expedience.  I blame us for making them appeal to such base instincts, and I blame us for re-electing them.  They fear bad press more than they fear an informed electorate.  And the fuckers keep getting elected, so what do we know?

Wait. wait wait - let's be clear here - Clinton voted for the war - Obama, at the time, was not in the US Senate, but was against the war. 

Just clarifying that point.

Go back to your infighting now.

Matt I don't think you are jumping down my throat at all. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. When I was younger I felt exactly like you and Mike, but after having  Bush in office for almost 8 years has made me very bitter, is that wrong, YES it is.

That's a bit harsh Mr. Douglas.

Not harsh at all, I expect it from Todd and I would be sad if he didn't respond that way. That's the only Todd I know.

Here Todd I hate to disappoint

Jodi, one of the biggest sins the Democrats committed during the build up to the invasion of Iraq is that most didn't ask questions.  Much like the media at the time, they were swept up in following Bush lockstep.  They didn't push for solid information.  They pulled up to the table and ate what they were fed with no complaints. And now they want to balk and complain that they were lied to?  Seriously? Part of their job is to act as a check & balance to the White House...something they failed miserably to do.

As far as it being politically motivated, Democrats decided that it would have been political suicide to go against the president so soon after 9/11 when the American people were looking for someone, anyone, to blame and Bush and his cronies served up Iraq and Saddam on a silver platter.  Instead of attempting to slow down the decision to invade, they helped to speed it up with their near unanimous decision.  As a Democrat, I simply can not let them off the hook by allowing them to say they were "tricked" into supporting the invasion.  Again, it's not that black and white. 

Do I really have to dig up all the quotes from people in the Clinton Administration saying that Iraq had WMDs? Were they lying too?

----------------------------------------------------

Yes.

But they didn't invade.

Matt I honestly agree with everything you say, I kept telling my husband "if a mom in Muncie, IN, knows there is no WMD's in Iraq why can't those in power know the same." I agree they should not be completely off the hook. But as I said I watched Colin Powell speak before the UN and I think he at that time believed what he was saying , it was when he figured out that it was a lie, that is when he quit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/09/mcclellan-to-testif y-befo_n_106128.html

Jodi: "I kept telling my husband "if a mom in Muncie, IN, knows there is no WMD's in Iraq why can't those in power know the same." I agree they should not be completely off the hook."

Jodi: "How can being lied to by those in the white house not excuse democrats for voting the way they did concerning the Iraq invasion."

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Are you arguing with yourself now?