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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 1
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It is a fair point Eric. I guess the question for me is how long am I into it before I realize "Hey this stinks." an issue, 3? When is it an aberration or a slow stretch that could be righted any minute and when is it something that is going to be sucky for awhile.
THen again, some characters. even if it is a "C" story or whatever, is still better to me than an "A" or at least "Bplus" of other characters. Or, I'd rather read a mediocre comic than watch, say, a mediocre tv show. Better than the alternative.
I don't really get offended by what is in a comic-so I rarely loathe something. I give old books/characters more leeway too then new ones.
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Mike Bunge
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1335
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 2
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"Ok. I'll say it again. What proof or evidence do you have that "fans" dislike Spider-man in the New Avengers."
That's a fair point. But the counterpoint is The Clone Saga which sold very well for quite a while, right up until it really, really didn't.
Mike
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Mike Bunge
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1335
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 3
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"I think of the Spider-Totem as an unwanted, unloved supporting
character. The writer loves the character, tries to fit it into every
issue whether there's a place for it or not, and is going to
remain oblivious to every complaint against it as long as he's
around. When the next creative team comes around, clear
some space in the attic for the Spider-Totem,"
But isn't that somewhat dependent on who the next creative team is? What if it's another Hollywood-type who thinks the Spider-Totem is a great idea because he doesn't want to tell the "same old Spider-Man stories anymore"?
Mike
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 4
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Of course it's dependent on the next writer(s), and it's
just as possible that the next guy will take everything
a few steps further and make the entire book about
the totem-stuff, whether it's a screenwriter, a novelist
or Roy Thomas.
From what I've read, the Spider-Totem is really easy
for other creative teams to ignore, since it deals with
aspects of Spider-Man's origin that may or may not
be true (irradiated spider biting Peter Parker
definitely happened, Uncle Ben's death definitely
happened, but predestination of those events can't
really be proven one way or the other), and the only
other "real" ramification is the creation of new
super-villains, who might never show up again.
You've got 45 years' worth of great (and lousy)
villains to use, *plus* the option of creating new
ones, so I don't think the next writer who wants to
make a name for himself on Spider-Man is going to
re-use the same crew that his immediate
predecessor did.
Again, maybe it's just optimism on my part, but stuff
like Gwen's kids, the Spider-Totem, weird mystical
gothic supervillains and the eyeball-eating scene all
went over like a lead balloon, and I really don't see
the next "main" writer wanting to deal with that stuff,
since they'll probably be bringing him in when
Straczynski's officially worn out his welcome by
lowering sales too much. I'm sure that JMS was
encouraged to distance his work from Howard
Mackie's, and I'm sure whomever comes on after
JMS will be given a fair amount of free reign to do
what he wants, too.
Like Howard Mackie said earlier, all of this stuff will
make the eventual return to basics that much
sweeter. When JMS leaves, I'm thinking that Marvel
will look at books like All-Star Superman and All-Star
Batman (plus the upcoming One Year Later stuff),
realize that sales are really, really high on books with
high-profile comic creators telling straightforward,
iconic superhero stories featuring their most
recognizable characters, and do a bit of
house-cleaning on their end.
Just speculation at this point, mind you, and it could
be that Spider-Man's going to get a lot worse before
he gets better, but he's too great a character to stay
down for long.
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Lance Hill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2005
Posts: 991
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 5
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QUOTE:
When JMS leaves, I'm thinking that Marvel
will look at books like All-Star Superman and All-Star
Batman (plus the upcoming One Year Later stuff),
realize that sales are really, really high on books with
high-profile comic creators telling straightforward,
iconic superhero stories featuring their most
recognizable characters, and do a bit of
house-cleaning on their end. |
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The goddamn Spider-Man in his goddamn Spider-Mobile. That'll be brill on toast!
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | 6
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When JMS leaves, I'm thinking that Marvel
will look at books like All-Star Superman and All-Star
Batman (plus the upcoming One Year Later stuff),
realize that sales are really, really high on books with
high-profile comic creators telling straightforward,
iconic superhero stories featuring their most
recognizable characters
****
Um, wasn't the All-Star line essentially DC's response to Marvel's Ultimate line (granted ultimate makes more changes).
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 2:23pm | IP Logged | 7
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"The goddamn Spider-Man in his goddamn Spider-Mobile. That'll be brill on toast!"
And his little b*tch Spider-Grrl getting slapped around.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | 8
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"From what I've read, the Spider-Totem is really easy
for other creative teams to ignore, since it deals with
aspects of Spider-Man's origin that may or may not
be true"
They made it "true" when they heaped on dozens of extra powers from the new origin.
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Todd Douglas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 July 2004
Posts: 4101
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 9
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QUOTE:
The saddest part about that:
When I was looking up some sales figures the other day {Slingers} was on one of the list. It sold over 110,000 copies for the first issue. WTF?!? THAT WAS AFTER THE SPECULATOR CRASH!!! |
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As someone who came into the book (relatively) late, Slingers was just plain fun. But, for that sales number, it may be prudent to divide by four. The first issue had a different twist on the "variant" angle...not only were there four different covers, each spotlighting a different character, but at one or two particular points in the issue, there were a handful of different pages, spotlighting what was going on with the cover character at that point in the story.
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 10
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"From what I've read, the Spider-Totem is really easy
for other creative teams to ignore, since it deals with
aspects of Spider-Man's origin that may or may not
be true"
They made it "true" when they heaped on dozens of extra powers from the new origin.
****
Beat me to it. Although not not sure what new powers he has. He can see in the dark, and feel things on a spider-web like a real Spider. And he seems stronger.
I am not sure what else is coming (the new suit has its own set of "powers")
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 11
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When I was looking up some sales figures the other
day {Slingers} was on one of the list. It sold over
110,000 copies for the first issue. WTF?!? THAT
WAS AFTER THE SPECULATOR CRASH!!!
*****
In 1975 that would have put it about 10,000 copies
ahead of the chop.
I wonder if this industry is every going to realize the
best way to address shrinking sales is NOT by
shrinking expectations?
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
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| Posted: 03 February 2006 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | 12
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Um, wasn't the All-Star line essentially DC's
response to Marvel's Ultimate line (granted ultimate
makes more changes).
Maybe, *but* DC's One Year Later thing looks like it's
an effort to clean house, go back to basics on some
of these characters, and put some distance between
the next phase of DC Comics and any
continuity-heavy, complicated messes they've got
right now. It looks like they're making a concerted
effort to move in a more reader-friendly direction right
now. Not quite the "toss everything out and remake
it" approach of the Ultimate line or DC right after the
Crisis, but it's a line-wide "dusting off" that will
remind people why they liked these characters in the
first place.
They made it "true" when they heaped on dozens
of extra powers from the new origin.
Maybe, but it's still stuff that can be very, very easily
ignored by the next creative team. The Spider-Totem
doesn't need to be referenced at all when explaining
Spider-Man's origin any more than you need to talk
about Steve Rogers's ancestor who dressed as
Captain America in the Revolutionary War needs to
be referenced when recounting his origin. You don't
need to bring up the Eradicator, Cleric and that
whole batch of continuity when discussing
Superman's origin, either, and the Spider-Totem's
the same sort of "not very high on the list of important
aspects to this character's origin" that the other stuff
does. You can use it for stories when it suits your
purpose, and you can ignore it when it doesn't.
As for the extra powers, as long as Spider-Man is
strong, sticks to walls, makes webs and jumps
around a lot, the rest of the stuff isn't going to get
much screen time. It's not visually exciting for
Spider-Man to look at stuff in the dark or converse
with crickets, and I'm sure that 90% of the artists who
sign on to draw Spider-Man want to draw the really
classic action scenes. If Superman gains the power
of "super-skipping" next month, that doesn't mean
he's going to stop using flight as his primary means
of transportation, and Spider-Man's goofy secondary
powers aren't going to get much screentime past
JMS's tenure.
All this reminds me of a Quasar story by Mark
Gruenwald that revealed that there was a little old
lady who actually planned all of the origin accidents
that created all of the Marvel Superheroes (I'm a bit
fuzzy on the details, so if anyone can provide a better
synopsis, go for it). Weird little story, didn't take, got
ignored, no one ever referenced it again, end of
story. Considering all the other "permanent"
changes to Spider-Man that have come and gone
over the years, one that exists solely to screw with
his powers a bit and add some new villains to his
rogues gallery doesn't strike me as the one that'll
stick.
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Topic Closed)
