and Gwen had those babies and was going to raise them right, by golly, with Peter at her side!

(Make no mistake, I am not defending JMS here).

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You're either defending him or intentionally missing the point.

JMS revealed that Gwen was not the character we thought she was or even the writer of the stories in which she appeared thought she was (I wonder how he'd feel if another writer later did this to one of his characters during his Spider-Man run).

Miller didn't change who Karen Page was during those early DD stories.  You may object to the growth or the story but you can't compare the two.

<<Some of your argument sounds like JMS.>>

NOW you're playing dirty.


>:-)

***

I know. All in good fun guys.  I mean no harm! and all this is with a smile on my face.

It's fun to actually have people to discuss comics with again.

For Heaven's sake, why are you making me relive this story?

****

I have no doubt Peter would have done what he could to raise the kids-even quit school.

It's funny though-I kept waiting for the twist in that story that would reveal the "truth"-that these weren't Gwen's kids. or at least, that Norman doped her or something.

and it never came.

Maybe he wouldn't be a sap. I don't know.  And yet, you would think he wouldn;t let her rot either.

I would imagine he would eventually forgive her after some soul searching and much crying on her part.  Whether they ever got together again-i don't know

and then Gwen could puke after she was told she just had sex with an insane madman, the Green Goblin, who tries to kill her boyfriend every once in awhile.

I'm still haunted by the image of Norman's face with a smile over Gwen. Ugh.

I would imagine future stories will have Norman taunting Peter with this info, as he does with other things.

"Junkie ex-porn star who sold DD's identity to his worst enemy for a fix of drugs. Originally? Demure Law Secretary in love with the hero

Girl who, out of the blew, slept with the father of Peter's best friend (who was his worst enemy, but she didn't know that).  Orginally? ABout as sweet, if a bit whiny, as sweet can be. (oK, not the Ditko issues so much, she had more sass then).

Say you are Peter Parker and Matt Murdock.  I mean, they both kind suck, but the former seems more extreme than the latter. The latter seems forgivable."

I don't know about you, but I really can't compare "selling my secret identity" with "cheating on me".  One only happense to super-heroes, the other to real people all the time.

Let's look at it this way, which would be easier for you to forgive - A former boyfriend/girlfriend/significant other revealing a secret about you...OR, your current boyfriend/girlfriend/significant other cheating on you?

Secondly, I don't think you can really compare the status Karen Page had in the Daredevil mythos at the time of BORN AGAIN to the status Gwen Stacy has to Spider-Man in the present day.

Thirdly, as others have pointed out...Miller put all the toys back in the box when he was done playing with them.  JMS put a giant turd back in the toy box.

Fourthly, I maintain that as disgusting as the Gwen/Norman thing is, the big problem with it is that it doesn't make any sense.  It's just bad writing.  BORN AGAIN, whatever ones opinion of what happens in the story, is well written.

Mike

A former boyfriend/girlfriend/significant other revealing a secret about you...OR, your current boyfriend/girlfriend/significant other cheating on you?

***

Dude, if my former girlfriend was sleeping with men for money, and had a serious drug habit to boot, I don;t think I could easily even look at them the same way, truthfully.

Cheating by an old dead woman I have deified? Hard to imagine I'd feel good.  But heck, a one time cheat might be better than some pathetic porn star/druggie. 

Most likely, i'd dislike them both. But I might learn to forgive the old dead girl who slept with another guy once.

Now, my wife who has kept that secret all these years...........

Why do I have Ross's "WE WERE ON  A BREAK" in my head?

Fourthly, I maintain that as disgusting as the Gwen/Norman thing is, the big problem with it is that it doesn't make any sense.  It's just bad writing.

***

I thought the story itself failry well written-in the sense that it was emotional and the art backed it up-to a point.  The whole Gwen thing was just out of the blew-I guess that was JMS's point, in reading what he says on message boards. We kept waiting to at least here the BIG reason she slept with Norman. Mind control, drugs, etc. and there was no reason.  He was an older guy with charisma who Gwen felt sorry for.  That's all.

If karen was sucvh a nothing, why bring her back at all? Why not a new character?

Gwen would be fondly remembered but a nothing too., Except she keeps coming back with new stories, new surprises, clones, robots, flashbacks, sheesh

When it came to his original run on the title, yes. He even killed off new characters he'd introduced. "Born Again" was different, though. With that story, it was more like he took all the toys out of the box, lay them down neatly in a row, and then smashed the box.
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That's an interesting take, because I think if you look at the last issue in Miller's first DD run, Matt is a bit of a mess -- one so distraught over the death of Elektra that he almost murdered Bullseye. Afterward, later writers went further into the darkness, so that Matt was close to a complete breakdown.

However, at the end of Miller's second run, he resolves all this. He meets and defeats his demons. He's no longer a lawyer but that could be resolved in a story arc. He lives in Hell's Kitchen with Karen with a renewed sense of purpose.

So he basically lives with a whore.  Sheesh!*

Daredevil Yellow has spoiled me for Karen

*Later exploiuted as the reason for her death by Kevin SMith.