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Michael Wood Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 165
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 1
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JQ and BJ are trying new things. They just aren't interesting that's all.
Those are some mighty big shoes that Jack and Stan left behind.
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David Schimmel Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 539
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 2
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I might add Exiles (even though it may have taken XMHY's place), the beginning of the current ASM run, beginning of the FF run under waid/weiringo (even though Bill J f'd that one up, allegedly), beginning of the current DD run (started nicely, terrible after the first 5 issues or so), end of Avengers run with Kieron was VERY good, i thought. That's about it.......in fact, I would say Geoff's Avengers run BEGAN my shedding all of my marvel books. The exact OPPOSITE of how his writing attracted me BACK to DC books.
Anyway, I'm going a bit off topic.....
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Gregg Allinson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4252
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 11:42am | IP Logged | 3
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"As an aside, anytime M!"£$%^&*()l try anything even slightly different with their core characters, this place goes bloody mad!"
There's a certain tightrope you have to walk. I mean, Spider-Man is supposed to be "the hero who could be you". Ask almost anyone- even Sam Raimi- what the major appeal of Spider-Man is and they'll likely say something like "He's a young man who faces the same problems everyone else does." Even the marriage- while fairly damaging to the core Spider-Man concept- didn't take the character outside the realms of reality or empathy. I do have young married friends, and could see myself getting married one day (not to a supermodel, mind you...).
However, when you get to the point where SPOILERS Spider-Man is a one-eyed avatar of the Spider-Totem living in Avengers Mansion...I mean "Avengers Tower", the Spider-Man concept has clearly gone off the rails a bit. Yes, JMS has done "new" and "different" things with Spider-Man, but how many of them hold true to the central rules that Stan and Steve set down and most subsequent Spider-Man writers and artists followed for roughly 25 years?
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Kevin Brown Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 31 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 9147
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 11:42am | IP Logged | 4
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Perhaps I should not bite the hand that currently feeds me. . . .
Point well taken.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134763
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 5
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Those are some mighty big shoes that Jack and Stan left behind. **** None bigger, if you add Steve Ditko's name to that short list. Something to note, however, is that those of us sharecroppers who managed to create our own memorable runs, did so by looking at what had come before and then trying to extrapolate, not repeat, what we saw. Thus you get Walt on Thor, Frank on Daredevil, Roger on Spider-Man, me on the FF and, of course, Chris and me on the X-Men.
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Thomas Mets Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 898
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 6
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Perhaps I should not bite the hand that currently
feeds me. . . .
********************************************************** *********************
Understandable, although as someone who enjoys many books that Marvel
currently publishes I am annoyed when people criticize Marvel in
particular for the problems of the entire industry.
Yes, JMS has done "new" and "different" things
with Spider-Man, but how many of them hold true to the central rules
that Stan and Steve set down and most subsequent Spider-Man writers and
artists followed for roughly 25 years?
********************************************************** ***************************
I think it's kinda funny that you expect writers and artists to follow
the rules that others ahve followed for more than a generation
AFTER Lee & Ditko on a thread that was started when Byrne asked why
Marvel doesn't do something new more often.
I'm also curious as to which central rules JMS's Spiderr-Man violates.
Some of the central rules I've seen established by Lee- Ditko
1. Peter & Aunt May have a strong relationship. Both consistently uinderestimate each other's strength.
2. Spider-Man cracks jokes during fights.
3. Spider-Man will never surrender when fighting enemies who are likely
to kill him. Exemplified in Stern's Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut,
but established after Doctor Octopus beat up Spider-Man in Amazing
Spider-Man #3.
4. The worst thing for Spider-Man is when his loved ones are threatened.
5. Stories can be ripped from the headlines/ related to current events.
6. Life can be good for Spider-Man sometimes.
7. Spider-Man's always worried that things will get worse
8. Peter Parker's smarter than his fans.
9. Spdier-Man fights new villains every now, and then.
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David Rettenmaier Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 7
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I'm reminded of an instance that Mark Waid talked about. He has said that then-Marvel EIC Bob Harras told him that "We consider writer-driven comics as an experiment that's failed."
And Mark was thinking, "Hmm, bet that's new to Stan Lee!!"
But I think that has become Marvel's mantra for a long while now. "Writer-driven comics are an experiment that's failed". The company is run now by editors, and the writers are just tools to deliver the goods. The writers are easily interchangeable.
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Gregg Allinson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4252
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | 8
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"I think it's kinda funny that you expect writers and artists to follow the rules that others ahve followed for more than a generation AFTER Lee & Ditko on a thread that was started when Byrne asked why Marvel doesn't do something new more often."
JB also pointed out that "...us sharecroppers who managed to create our own memorable runs, did so by looking at what had come before and then trying to extrapolate, not repeat, what we saw". JB, Frank Miller, Walt Simonson, et al made an honest effort to "play by the rules"- and when something was changed, it was something that one could change back with a minimum of fuss (eg She-Hulk, new uniforms, and Four Freedoms Plaza over in FF). Doing something "new" doesn't mean "trash the character and ignore the original creator's vision"; it means build upon it.
Now? JMS is constantly taking Spider-Man farther and farther away from what makes him...well...Spider-Man, unless I missed the SPOILERS one-eyed avatar of the Spider-Totem living in Avengers Mansion...I mean "Avengers Tower" appearing in Spider-Man comics from '62 to '85. None of JMS's changes to Spider-Man are logical extrapolations of the original Lee/Ditko stories or Spider-Man's character as it was presented for decades.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134763
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 12:58pm | IP Logged | 9
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I'm reminded of an instance that Mark Waid talked about. He has said that then-Marvel EIC Bob Harras told him that "We consider writer-driven comics as an experiment that's failed."And Mark was thinking, "Hmm, bet that's new to Stan Lee!!" **** Anyone who thinks the books Stan wrote were "writer driven" doesn't have a clue about the "Marvel method". Waid is -- not surprisingly -- attempting here to perpetuate the myth that it is the writer, and only the writer who must wrestle with the Blank Page. For those who write full scripts, this may be the case. For 99.9999% of the books produced during the "Silver Age" of Marvel, not at all so. Stan was too smart for that. He knew there was no point in him sitting down at his typewriter and banging out a script that told Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko what to draw. It was he who fine tuned the plot-pencils-script approach, with the "plot" being sometimes only a few words -- the legendary plot for the first Galactus trilogy: "Have them fight God" -- and placed himself in the position of putting the finishing polish on the stories that were mostly assembled by the artists. Often, this meant going in a whole different direction from what the artist intended (as with the "Him" saga in FF), but the art was there first, which means the stories were always artist driven. It was that simple thing which made Marvel so very different from -- and superior to -- the books DC was producing at the same time, most of which were editor-driven.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134763
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 1:00pm | IP Logged | 10
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None of JMS's changes to Spider-Man are logical extrapolations of the original Lee/Ditko stories or Spider-Man's character as it was presented for decades. ***** Fairly typical MAN OF STEEL Syndrome. Too many writers think their mandate is to blow everything up and start from scratch.
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Gregory Dickens Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 24 May 2004 Posts: 291
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 11
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Fairly typical MAN OF STEEL Syndrome. Too many writers think their mandate is to blow everything up and start from scratch.
What I see with a lot of current creators coming to established
properties is what I consider fanfiction. They don't write within the
confines of the property (Aunt May learns Peter is Spider-Man,
Spider-man is an Spider-God avatar,the current Big Plot in Captain
America, Karen Page is killed, etc.). It's as if an over-excited comic
fan was suddenly given the keys: "Oh, man. I'm gonna kill this guy off,
and this girl's gonna be made cool. And that origin needs to be more,
you, know, something else." This has been talked about before. We're getting stories where those established characters are shoehorned in, not their type of story.
While this can be argued as shaking off the dust, it also seems to
slough off the rules of the game. I'm for innovation, but such twists
in a short amount of time suggests the only stories to be told are of
the seismic degree. As if every plot is a mini-Crisis. Ragnarok works better when it happens rarely.
Edited by Gregory Dickens on 29 November 2005 at 1:32pm
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4074
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Posted: 29 November 2005 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think a big reason that we don't see a lot of new
characters from Marvel and DC is that (whether it's
likely or not) no one wants to create the next huge
multi-media superstar for his company and not get a
share of the licensing & merchandising profits that
the character generates.
Sure, Gambit and Bishop seem pretty unlikely to get
their own feature films, but Blade, Wolverine and
Ghost Rider have made the jump. If Hellboy had
been a Marvel property, how much money would
Mike MIgnola have gotten from the film (and the
shirts, toys, Zippo lighters...)?
Between the audience's resistance to new
characters and concepts in the first place and the
(real or imaginary) concern about giving away a
million-dollar idea, it's hard to put too much blame
on creators for opting to give Iron Man a new
costume or creating an "all-new" version of Moon
Knight instead of convincing the company to launch
a new series that probably won't last two years. If a
relaunch/retooling fails, a creator can comfort
himself by saying, "Guess the market's just not ready
for another New Warriors comic yet," but if your
original creation fails, it's a bit harder to take.
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