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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133852
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 1
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I found myself today thinking about the Marvel Comics I grew up with. No great change of pace there! Nostalgia drives much of my work. But in this case, I found myself looking at the history of Marvel as I experienced it more immediately, more personally.I started as a reader, of course. I picked up my first issue of FF in 1962, and was hooked. Stan and Jack, and later Stan and Steve, and then Stan and a whole flock of people, were doing things no one had ever done before. At least, no one I was aware of, at the ripe old age of 12, 13, 14. Marvel was, in my eyes (and even without really knowing the word) all about innovation. Sure -- superguys in suits, fighting badguys. Nothing new there. Except, they were in New York. Or New Mexico. Or some other place I had actually heard of out here in the real world. They talked like real people. They argued. Marvel, in a nutshell, was leading the way, and DC, the only company with any real chance of following, was hard pressed to do so. But by the time I joined Marvel, in the mid-70s, something had changed. It had been a long time since something as new and different as the Fantastic Four or Spider-Man had come out of the "House of Ideas". Marvel had become a place that recycled its own old ideas -- the "all new, all different" X-Men, for instance -- or took other people's ideas and tried to pound them into the superhero mold. "The Exorcist" gave us SON OF SATAN. The Kung Fu craze gave us MASTER OF KUNG FU and IRON FIST. It is perhaps no coincidence that it was during this time I first began hearing more and more people working up at Marvel refering to comics as a "stepping stone" to Hollywood. ("So step," I would say, "and leave more work for those of us who want to do comics!") I did not recognize this groundswell for what it was, back then, but with the clarity of hindsight it seems an awful lot like the first hints of what we see all too much of these days -- people working in comics (specifically superhero comics) who are embarassed by comics (especially superhero comics). The Image boys made much noise about wanting to make comics "just like Hollywood" -- and in large part they succeeded. Much to the detriment of the "House of M". Marvel today is much like the Marvel I joined in 1975. Recycling their old ideas. Lifting ideas whole cloth from other sources (movies and TV mostly). Only real difference, the pay is better but the books sell less. That's discounting the rampant unprofessionalism infecting every corner of the industry, mind you. So, hey, Marvel -- how about some real innovation. The 400th turn on "Days of Future Past" isn't innovative, in case you don't know. Frank Miller blew apart stiff and staid ol' DAREDEVIL and that's why you remember those issues. Copying them is not a route to immortality. Shock and Suspense, as Hitchcock pointed out, are two different things. As are Sensationalism and Controversy. And in both cases, the first one is easy. The second one takes work. And talent. Let's see some new ideas, "House". At least as new as what Lee, Kirby and Ditko gave us when they created the company you're merrily plundering and pillaging.
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Sam Karns Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7624
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 2
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Sad but true.
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Thomas Moudry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5060
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | 3
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Interesting observations, JB--and very, very true.
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Jason Fulton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3938
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 10:05pm | IP Logged | 4
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m***** 2006 new idea - Aunt May gets gangbanged. By the New Avengers.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 10:18pm | IP Logged | 5
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Oh goodness, Jason. I would be offended, if it wasn't so close to the truth !
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Frank Carchia Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2005 Location: United States Posts: 193
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | 6
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Let me give a quick "Wassup" to everyone here. It's been a while since my last post.
Your points are spot on, John. I grew up loving Larval and bought just about every book they produced throughout the '80s. I stopped collecting any Larval titles about 4-5 years ago because all my fave books were becoming about the massive crossover or the latest reboot of some "all new, all different" team (yawn). I also found the artwork on most Larval titles absolutely sub-par and truly amateurish.
To me, Larval truly started to suck it when this Joe Q. guy became the EIC (how the hell did that happen?). Normally, I wouldn't pay that much attention to who the EIC was, but since I found the level of quality so poor for nearly all the titles, I think the EIC shoulders a good part of the blame.
Unless a sea change takes place at the "House of Rehash", I cannot see myself digging any of the Larval staples (FF, Spidey, Avengers. X titles) in the future.
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Victor Cranston Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2005 Posts: 1
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 10:50pm | IP Logged | 7
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Yeah, I like the real innovative stuff.
Like Spidey Chapter One and X-Men: Hidden Years....really treading new ground there.
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Sam Karns Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7624
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 8
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I think JB has tried to produce innovative material but the powers that be tied his hands. He has been true to comics, but unfortunately the many people involved in the day to day operations are not as true. If writing feature films are their passions than I think they should do so, but give it to good hands.
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Andrew Old Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 245
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | 9
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"Victor Cranston": Yeah, I like the real innovative stuff. Like Spidey Chapter One and X-Men: Hidden Years....really treading new ground there. ************************************************************ **************
What? Someone just shit in the pool again?
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 10
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What Sam said. And to add, when JB does established charcters he works
within that framework. The sh*thacks currently working Marvel only know
how to knock down walls, and have no idea what to replace them
with.
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Mike Romero Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2005 Location: United States Posts: -1
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | 11
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Victor,
I don't recall Hidden Years HAVING any rehashed story-lines or concepts.
Also, Chapter One was an ORIGIN STORY, not much to be done with
that. (JB was criticized only for things he was accused of CHANGING.)
BTW do you usually insult your host the minute you walk in the door to their
HOUSE?
Edited by Mike Romero on 29 November 2005 at 1:42am
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Trevor Colligan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 547
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | 12
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i liked to call this one of those same rant, different day threads.
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