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Jay Matthews Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 2468
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 10:39pm | IP Logged | 1
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Kurt Evans wrote:
I disagree strongly, however, with the notion that fictional characters
can't or shouldn't experience "growth." The point of a story arc, from
my perspective, is to create an "I learned a lesson here" feeling. |
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The one who experiences growth in this type of good writing is the
reader. The "growth" the character experiences can be transmitted
in words as part of the story ("I know now that with great power comes
great responsibility."), but without many major life changes.
It's just not feasible to accumulate meaningful life changing growth
over a 50 year period. Most of us are worm food after that kind
of growth.
I agree with you Kurt, I just think you changed the subject a
bit. We're doing "growth" with derisive quote marks, referring to
the vanity of writers who feel the need to put a noticeable life change
on the character because it's time for him to "grow up."
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John Webb Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 October 2004 Posts: 1428
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 4:29am | IP Logged | 2
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When I first left comics back in the late 80's I was mostly reading stuff like like American Flagg, Love & Rockets and such like with a smattering of 'normal' stuff like Teen Titans. I graduated to these comics from the likes of Spider-man and the Flash because my tastes changed as I got older.
Now that I have come back into comics I still have lots of stuff to choose from such as Preacher, Asto City and the Authority etc. I am catered for nicely. As it happens gluttony prevails because most of the stuff I grew out of has become similar in nature to the more adult stuff I like to read. Whoopee do for me, I have dozens and dozens of comics to read should I want to.
The problem with this picture of course is that what is being written for the type of kid I was before I hit 14+ I don't see much around that would entice the 8 year old that I was, to reach out for and start collecting comics today.
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
Joined: 01 October 2003 Posts: -26
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 5:55am | IP Logged | 3
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After reading the posts on this thread I have to ask what you define as
comics. "Growth" — that is, the process of developing or maturing
mentally, or spiritually — should be used in any comic, whatever it's
genre or target audience if that is the stated intention of said comic.
JB is absolutely right about the myth: viable character=growth. I think it's
a case of "you're damned if you do, and you're damned of you don't".
When something is changed, the "true fans" complain. When there isn't
any "growth", they complain some more.
When people complain that superhero X hasn't aged when they logically
should have, well, they just don't get it. Storytime, wether a comic, a book
or a film is not bound by real time. It never was. If "true fans" fail to
comprehend this fundamental law of storytelling, then it's perhaps time
for them to move on. It's sounds to like the willing suspension of disbelief
just crashed into the ground.
Just my ramblin' two cents.
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Mikael Bergkvist Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 April 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1857
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 6:04am | IP Logged | 4
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If it's an ongoing title, the character cannot grow. It will kill the title in the end.. how can it not?
On the other hand, if it's a complete novel, the characters have to grow, otherwise, why would I care? Since it's not supposed to continue, I expect the whole story right away, whereas with Spiderman, I assume they will 'get to it' eventually, whatever I'm curios about.
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Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4228
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:11am | IP Logged | 5
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I love growth in comics.
My favorite Spiderman are Stan Lee, Roger Stern and Michelinie.
Fantastic Four: Lee Kirby, Roy Thomas, Your own writer/artist run.
X-Men: Claremont with You, Paul Smith and John Romita Jr. Even if I enjoyed Lee/Kirby, Thomas/Adams and Claremont/Cockrum (first run) for me they were only the prologue of the X-men I Ioved and still love. Yet i began to read the X-men with the Arcade arc by you and Chris so I'm biased here.
But what I mean is that I like evolution in comics (when it's well done).
My favorite Robin will always be Dick but when Marv Wolfman and George Perez came with the Nightwing concept in Teen Titans I loved the idea.
One of the reason I loved so much your FF was because the characters were more adult than before. Sue was a woman and a mother, Johny was more mature, Alicia was a real woman and not just the poor fragile girlfdriend of Ben.
I loved Roger Stern Avengers because of adult and clever Janet.
My favorite comics are generaly all-ages, like Iron Man by Michelinie and Layton; but I like when they include mature themes like the Ann Nocenti/John Romita Jr Daredevil.
And I like comics writen for adults like Gaiman's Sandman. What I don't like is when "adult" is understood as free "violence". Violence is acceptable in a comics when it's justified like in Frank Miller's "Born Again" or "Batman: Year One". Not when it's violence for violence, not when it's unjustified.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 06 November 2005 at 9:15am
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Richard Siegel Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 868
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:23am | IP Logged | 6
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Good thoughtful post JB and dead on.
I still pull out my silver agers (altho Im now a silver ager myself), put my 7 year old brain in and enjoy those yarns as much as I did the first time around. However altho Ive 'grown', Id rather not seen my charcaters grow - at least Little Orpahan Annie is still little and Blondioe and Dagwood are still married. Imagine if Blondie had been done as a comic book, they'd be divorced, Dagwood' have a drinking problem (instead of a food one) and Blondie's be running a cat house. Yikes~ thats what I see when I hear about modern comics like the dark ages of DC continuing with drek like Identity Crisis - Sue Dibny murdered - give me a break! Sorry my hard won $ is gonna go to a SOLO by Mike Alldred or a Simpsons Treehouse of Terror - EC spoof.
Edited by Richard Siegel on 06 November 2005 at 9:29am
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Jon Godson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005 Posts: 2468
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 7
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I still pull out my silver agers (altho Im now a silver ager myself), put my 7
year old brain in and enjoy those yarns as much as I did the first time
around
***************
Wow. I've heard this a lot. Am I the only one who can appreciate silver age
comic books as just enjoyable stories without having to think as a 7 year-
old?
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Lance Hill Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2005 Posts: 991
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
Who is the audience this industry needs more desperately? Is it the young first-time comic buyer or the adult who has followed the big name titles but who is now finding that the same repetetive stories, themes, characters are loosing his interest? I was a X-Men, Thor, Batman addict all through the 80's. But now I'm a Preacher, Leage of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Sin City kind of reader. Somehwere along the way I started realizing that I knew what would happen to Spider-Man before I ever picked up the latest issue.
There has to be some profitable balance between keeping iconic titles tied to the emerging young audience while still offering plenty of alternative, finite stories for people like me. I don't want Peter Parker to leave High School--not because I plan on reading the title any longer, but in the hope that my eleven year-old will find the same magic in it that I did at his age. |
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I'm pretty sure Mr Byrne wasn't talking about finite or creator owned series. They're a completely different kettle of fishes. Without a doubt there should be both finite and infinite comics series, the problem is when people don't understand which should be which.
It seems that most American comic fans would rather have "growth and change" placed upon the characters they've been reading since childhood, characters that were supposed to remain pretty much the same forever, rather than seeking out comics that were always intended to be constantly growing and changing and ultimately finite.
Imagine if television fans acted this way, demanding that the cast of Sesame Street grow and change, and fan turned pro writers came and did just that!
Just the other week on another comic book message board, someone started a thread asking why the hell Archie Comics were still in business, "nothing ever changes!", sadly enough they were being serious.
Edited by Lance Hill on 06 November 2005 at 9:39am
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Chris Yeoman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 2371
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 9
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Interesting post JB, thanks. :-)
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Jon Godson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005 Posts: 2468
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 10
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Imagine if television fans acted this way, demanding that the cast of Sesame
Street grow and change, and fan turned pro writers came and did just that!
****************
Cookie monster now teaches children not to eat too many cookies. I'm not
kidding.
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17710
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 11
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Robin becoming Nightwing is one of the many examples of aging in comics that I do not like. Unless Dick exists in a vacuum, that means that all of the other original Teen Titans have aged along with him, and so have Batman and his contemporaries.
Like the JB member previously mentioned, I also prefer the "original" Spider-Man to the Ultimate version. What I mean - and perhaps others who say this mean as well - is that I want to read about the unmarried teenaged wallcrawler in the original title, not in an "alternate" universe.
Edited by Wallace Sellars on 06 November 2005 at 9:41am
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17710
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:44am | IP Logged | 12
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Jon, like you I enjoy those older books without putting in my "7-year-old brain," but I do read them recognizing the era in which they were produced.
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