Author |
|
James C. Taylor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4705
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
Jason Schulman wrote:
Watchmen is certainly pessimistic, but I'd hardly call it cynical; |
|
|
How is not the Comedian the very personification of cynical?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Flavio Sapha Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Brazil Posts: 12912
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
I think the Daniel Dreiberg Nite-Owl is a really cool character. In the good
old days, Dave Gibbons could've done a mini-series focusing on his youth,
eh?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Darragh Greene Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 1812
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Steve Horton: I blame Wolverine.
************************************
A superhero who kills certainly strikes at the core humanist virtues of the
genre; but Wolverine is supposed to operate according to the bushido code of the samurai, so his killing is somehow squared with a warrior's
code of honour. Reminds me of the chivalric code of medieval romance
heroes such as the Knights of the Round Table who equally practised
virtue, served God, but killed when necessary.
So I don't blame Wolverine, at least not how he was portrayed by JB,
Claremont, Miller or BWS in the '80s.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
QUOTE:
How is not the Comedian the very personification of cynical? |
|
|
You're not supposed to identify with the Comedian! If you're supposed to identify with anyone in Watchmen, it's Nite Owl or Silk Spectre.
And JB does have a point -- Moore shouldn't have been surprised by
readers finding Rorshach appealing. Hell, I like the character and my
views are a million miles away from his.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Jacob P Secrest Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 October 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4068
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
James C. Taylor wrote:
How is not the Comedian the very personification of cynical? |
|
|
That character was cynical, WATCHMEN as a whole, not so much.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Darragh Greene Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 1812
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
If Watchmen wasn't cynical, please point out the idealism because I
sure can't find any.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Jacob P Secrest Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 October 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4068
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Jason Schulman wrote:
And JB does have a point -- Moore shouldn't have been surprised by
readers finding Rorshach appealing. Hell, I like the character and my
views are a million miles away from his. |
|
|
I'm a wacko liberal nutjob (that's a tad bit of hyperbole there) and I
identified with Rorschach.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
QUOTE:
Wolverine is supposed to operate according to the bushido code of the samurai |
|
|
All that stuff got shoehorned in in the 1980s, as I recall. When JB was
plotting and drawing Wolverine's life, he was just a guy who got into
berserk rages and that was that.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Jacob P Secrest Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 October 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4068
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
Darragh Greene wrote:
If Watchmen wasn't cynical, please point out the idealism because I
sure can't find any. |
|
|
It's far from idealistic, but it's also not exactly cynical, if I'd have to
describe it, I'd call it pessimistic rather than cynical.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Thomas Mets Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 898
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
Why are you even here?
********************************************************** **********************************
Because I enjoy your work on Uncanny X-Men, Fantastic Four, Superman,
Next Men, and other books (I've very much looking forward to your JLA
classified arc with Roger Stern). I also like reading your opinions,
and the opinions of the other fans here, even if they're very often
different from mine. I also like debating comic books.
Suddenly, everything Alan Moore has ever written
makes perfect sense to me! He's not from our Earth at all! He's from a
parallel universe in which characters like Wolverine never even
existed, let alone predated WATCHMEN by about 10 years.
********************************************************** *****************************
From my readings of Watchmen & the X-Men comics, I've determined
that Rorschach is crazier than Wolverine. Hell, Rorschach could be Alan
Moore's response to the popularity of characters like Wolverine.
Thomas, you're debating from the "either/or" camp. I never said
that people couldn't enjoy both WATCHMEN and FF. Don't put words in my
mouth or add to my debate something I never said.
JJJ's reaction to Spider-Man isn't the same as people in the MU
saying the man who puts on a Spider-costume is "more crazy" than them.
JJJ has a very personal vendetta against Spider-Man, and he also wants
to sell newspapers. That's totally different than showing the populace
of a mainstream superhero world thinking anyone who dons a costume is
crazy. In other words, I think it's totally cool to examine the genre
in a comic divorced from mainstream superheroes, but the instant a fan
asks that it be examined in the MU or DCU proper (asking any of a
number of questions like "why don't the Gotham police arrest Batman",
or "just how many times can Spider-Man fight the Green Goblin", or
"shouldn't the normal people of these universes think every costumed
hero is just a little bit crazy?") then I think it's time for them to
move on to other forms of entertainment and leave mainstream superhero
comics to those who love them for what they are, not demanding from
them what they aren't.
********************************************************** *******************
I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth. You expressed the opinion that
an individual who enjoys a comic book in which bystanders believe that
anyone willing to put on a costume, and fight crime is crazy should
move on to other things (I'm assuming this means genres, artistic
mediums, or/ and "do something worthwhile with your life rather than
debate comic books on internet forums.") I responded that readers are
capable of enjoying both that type of story and more traditional
superhero stories.
Watchmen is not set in the MU/ DCU proper, so it is
a work divorced from mainstream superheroes. I should note that I began
reading comic books years after Watchmen, when people were asking
questions such as why don't cops arrest Batman, or why does Spider-Man
keep fighting the Green Goblin? I don't think there's anything wrong
with a writer asking that question, especially if a writer's able to
provide a good answer (ie- cops recognize the good that Batman's doing
to Gotham City, Spider-Man's code of ethics prevents him from killing.)
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
James C. Taylor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4705
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
Jason Schulman wrote:
You're not supposed to identify with the Comedian! |
|
|
The very first character we're introduced to, the one who is the catalyst for the unraveling of the mystery to begin with. K
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Kurt Evans Byrne Robotics Member
Auto-Contrarian
Joined: 02 September 2004 Posts: 1243
|
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
I kind of got the impression that the Comedian was supposed to be synonymous with "the man." He was an example of all the things wrong with that society, hence the reason he took a nose dive from a high rise at the hands of someone trying to fix things.
I for one never identified with the Comedian. Why would I? He's nothing like most of the heroes in the book, nor is he like anyone I care about in the real world. He was a sadistic bastard who killed a woman pregnant with his child. Do you really think Moore wanted us to identify with him?
I would agree that we weren't supposed to identify with him. Just because he's the first one we're introduced to, and the catalyst for unravelling the mystery doesn't mean that he's someone we should feel empathetic toward. In fact, the only part of the book where he's at all even human is when he comes to realize that his world is crumbling and, without a face to hit, he's scared. Still, I felt more pity toward him than anything else, even then.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|