Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 26 Next >>
Topic: Big Watchmen write-up in EW (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
James C. Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4705
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 1  

 Jason Schulman wrote:
Watchmen is certainly pessimistic, but I'd hardly call it cynical;

How is not the Comedian the very personification of cynical?
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 2  

I think the Daniel Dreiberg Nite-Owl is a really cool character. In the good
old days, Dave Gibbons could've done a mini-series focusing on his youth,
eh?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Darragh Greene
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1812
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 3  

Steve Horton: I blame Wolverine.
************************************

A superhero who kills certainly strikes at the core humanist virtues of the
genre; but Wolverine is supposed to operate according to the bushido code of the samurai, so his killing is somehow squared with a warrior's
code of honour. Reminds me of the chivalric code of medieval romance
heroes such as the Knights of the Round Table who equally practised
virtue, served God, but killed when necessary.

So I don't blame Wolverine, at least not how he was portrayed by JB,
Claremont, Miller or BWS in the '80s.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 4  


 QUOTE:
How is not the Comedian the very personification of cynical?


You're not supposed to identify with the Comedian! If you're supposed to identify with anyone in Watchmen, it's Nite Owl or Silk Spectre.

And JB does have a point -- Moore shouldn't have been surprised by readers finding Rorshach appealing. Hell, I like the character and my views are a million miles away from his.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jacob P Secrest
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4068
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 5  

 James C. Taylor wrote:

How is not the Comedian the very personification of cynical?

That character was cynical, WATCHMEN as a whole, not so much.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Darragh Greene
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1812
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 6  

If Watchmen wasn't cynical, please point out the idealism because I
sure can't find any.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jacob P Secrest
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4068
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 7  

 Jason Schulman wrote:

And JB does have a point -- Moore shouldn't have been surprised by
readers finding Rorshach appealing. Hell, I like the character and my
views are a million miles away from his.

I'm a wacko liberal nutjob (that's a tad bit of hyperbole there) and I
identified with Rorschach.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 8  


 QUOTE:
Wolverine is supposed to operate according to the bushido code of the samurai


All that stuff got shoehorned in in the 1980s, as I recall. When JB was plotting and drawing Wolverine's life, he was just a guy who got into berserk rages and that was that.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jacob P Secrest
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4068
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 9  

 Darragh Greene wrote:

If Watchmen wasn't cynical, please point out the idealism because I
sure can't find any.

It's far from idealistic, but it's also not exactly cynical, if I'd have to
describe it, I'd call it pessimistic rather than cynical.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Thomas Mets
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 898
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 10  

Why are you even here?
********************************************************** **********************************

Because I enjoy your work on Uncanny X-Men, Fantastic Four, Superman, Next Men, and other books (I've very much looking forward to your JLA classified arc with Roger Stern). I also like reading your opinions, and the opinions of the other fans here, even if they're very often different from mine. I also like debating comic books.


Suddenly, everything Alan Moore has ever written makes perfect sense to me! He's not from our Earth at all! He's from a parallel universe in which characters like Wolverine never even existed, let alone predated WATCHMEN by about 10 years.
********************************************************** *****************************
From my readings of Watchmen & the X-Men comics, I've determined that Rorschach is crazier than Wolverine. Hell, Rorschach could be Alan Moore's response to the popularity of characters like Wolverine.

Thomas, you're debating from the "either/or" camp.  I never said that people couldn't enjoy both WATCHMEN and FF.  Don't put words in my mouth or add to my debate something I never said. 

JJJ's reaction to Spider-Man isn't the same as people in the MU saying the man who puts on a Spider-costume is "more crazy" than them.  JJJ has a very personal vendetta against Spider-Man, and he also wants to sell newspapers.  That's totally different than showing the populace of a mainstream superhero world thinking anyone who dons a costume is crazy. In other words, I think it's totally cool to examine the genre in a comic divorced from mainstream superheroes, but the instant a fan asks that it be examined in the MU or DCU proper (asking any of a number of questions like "why don't the Gotham police arrest Batman", or "just how many times can Spider-Man fight the Green Goblin", or "shouldn't the normal people of these universes think every costumed hero is just a little bit crazy?") then I think it's time for them to move on to other forms of entertainment and leave mainstream superhero comics to those who love them for what they are, not demanding from them what they aren't.
********************************************************** *******************
I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth. You expressed the opinion that an individual who enjoys a comic book in which bystanders believe that anyone willing to put on a costume, and fight crime is crazy should move on to other things (I'm assuming this means genres, artistic mediums, or/ and "do something worthwhile with your life rather than debate comic books on internet forums.") I responded that readers are capable of enjoying both that type of story and more traditional superhero stories.

Watchmen is not set in the MU/ DCU proper, so it is a work divorced from mainstream superheroes. I should note that I began reading comic books years after Watchmen, when people were asking questions such as why don't cops arrest Batman, or why does Spider-Man keep fighting the Green Goblin? I don't think there's anything wrong with a writer asking that question, especially if a writer's able to provide a good answer (ie- cops recognize the good that Batman's doing to Gotham City, Spider-Man's code of ethics prevents him from killing.)
Back to Top profile | search
 
James C. Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4705
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 11  

 Jason Schulman wrote:
You're not supposed to identify with the Comedian!

The very first character we're introduced to, the one who is the catalyst for the unraveling of the mystery to begin with. K
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Kurt Evans
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar
Auto-Contrarian

Joined: 02 September 2004
Posts: 1243
Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 12  

I kind of got the impression that the Comedian was supposed to be synonymous with "the man."  He was an example of all the things wrong with that society, hence the reason he took a nose dive from a high rise at the hands of someone trying to fix things.

I for one never identified with the Comedian.  Why would I?  He's nothing like most of the heroes in the book, nor is he like anyone I care about in the real world.  He was a sadistic bastard who killed a woman pregnant with his child.  Do you really think Moore wanted us to identify with him?

I would agree that we weren't supposed to identify with him.  Just because he's the first one we're introduced to, and the catalyst for unravelling the mystery doesn't mean that he's someone we should feel empathetic toward.  In fact, the only part of the book where he's at all even human is when he comes to realize that his world is crumbling and, without a face to hit, he's scared.  Still, I felt more pity toward him than anything else, even then.

Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 26 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login