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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 1
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Watchmen is certainly
pessimistic, but I'd hardly call it cynical; Nite Owl and Silk Spectre
are certainly human and perhaps even heroic in their own way. I
never had any problem with the Kitty Genovese reference (it's a real
world event and Moore obviously meant no disrespect by it); and as I
recall Rorshach didn't go utterly nuts until he confronted the guy who
fed the girl he kidnapped to his dogs. (Rorshach was certainly the
first truly convincing nutcase in comics).
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Thomas Mets
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 898
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 2
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WATCHMEN wasn't even the best comic book of 1987
********************************************************** *****************
1987 was a very good year for comics.
Watchmen
Maus
Batman- Year One
Using this as a criticism doesn't work as well. It's like arguing that
Chinatown's not great because the Godfather Part 2 was better, or
Stagecoach isn't great because Gone With the Wind was better.
(1939, and 1974- Very good years for movies.)
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Jon Godson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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What bothers me about the matter is how many Time readers will chose
Watchmen for their first comic experience and will walk away thinking that it
is typical for the medium.
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Darragh Greene
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1812
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | 4
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'Postmodernism' was first coined by the French cultural theorist Jean-
Francois Lyotard. I don't recommend anyone here searches for a rational
or consistent definition of just what he means by it because he's built an
entire career on keeping the term indefinable and ambiguous.
More sober critics have tried to rehabilitate the term by tying its
referential extension down somewhat better, and one of the best of these
would be Umberto Eco's description of the postmodern as a revisiting of
the past with irony.
There are different types of irony, of course, and that's where the
difference between 1961's FF and 1986's Watchmen lies; it's in
the tone. FF turns the conventions of traditional DC superheroics on
their head by humanising the heroes whereas Watchmen turns the
Marvel conventions on their head by dehumanising the heroes. The irony
of FF is critical and authentic while the irony of Watchmen is
parodic and sarcastic.
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Thomas Mets
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 898
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 5
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That was all part of Moore's misunderstanding of superheroes. He's one
of those people who believe that you'd have to be crazy in order to want
to dress up in a colorful costume and fight crime.
********************************************************** ***
2 points.
1. If someone got into a colorful costume, and started fighting
gangsters, pimps, and mobsters, you'd think he's more likely to be
crazy than the average individual.
2. I don't recall the two Nite Owls being crazy.
Ah, but which is the first domino?
What
you may not be taking into account is this: as I note above, I read
WATCHMEN up thru issue 5 in xerox form, as the books were coming into
the DC offices. I was working on Superman, then, and Frank was hard at
work on DKR. He was also seeing those xeroxes.
Now,
if you look at DKR with this in mind, you may notice something
(something of which I was very much aware at the time): DKR is the
first half of one story, and the second half of another. Right down the
middle is a line, which splits of the story Frank started, and
introduces the story he completed. And that story, the second one, was
heavily influenced by what he read in WATCHMEN.
Example?
DKR opens with Bruce Wayne and Jim Gordon sharing a drink as a
newscaster on the TV wonders whatever happened to Batman and hopes
that, wherever he is, he is sharing a drink with a friend. But by
halfway thru we all know what happened to Batman -- he and all other
superheroes were banned, outlawed, just as they were in WATCHMEN.
There's no reason for that newscaster to be wondering whatever happened
to Batman. Everybody knows.
So, yeah, DKR (or, rather, people misreading it, even to this day) can take a big mea culpa for much of the mess the industry is in today, but without WATCHMEN, I very much doubt that would have been the case.
********************************************************** ********************
That's something I didn't know about before, and am really glad I read.
You're....lumping in Barry Ween with the rest of those books? Seriously?
********************************************************** **************
I really like Barry Ween. It's my favorite comic book published while
I've been reading comics (the last ten, or so years), especially the
last issue of the Monkey Tales series. It's the funniest comic book
I've ever read, and it's the one I'd show to people who have never read
comics before (provided they wouldn't be put off by the cruder
elements).
Edited by Thomas Mets on 23 October 2005 at 12:25pm
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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 6
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It's better to use the term "revisionist superheroes" when discussing Watchmen, Dark Knight, The One, etc.
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Darragh Greene
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1812
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 7
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Revisionism is precisely a symptom or effect of postmodernism. (I hate
isms.)
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 8
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Thomas Mets wrote:
| 1. If someone got into a colorful costume, and started fighting gangsters, pimps, and mobsters, you'd think he's more likely to be crazy than the average individual. |
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Not if I'm reading a superhero comic. That's the suspension/acceptance one must have of their disbelief if they are to enjoy superhero comics. Once you start injecting what we in the real world would think about a guy in a Bat-suit or a Spider-costume running around town, you've pretty much pegged yourself as someone who should move on to other things.
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Jon Godson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 9
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Watchmen, The One, Maximortal, Brat Pack, Enigma (which should have been
on the Time list instead of Watchmen - highly underrated), John
Constantine, Sandman, Promethea, etc. are characters designed for a darker
view, and get a pass for corrupting the tone of mainstream Super-Hero
comics.
Batman/The Dark Knight, Shade the Changing Man, Doom Patrol, Animal
Man, and others like them should have been - and, in the future, should be
- off-limits.
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Thomas Mets
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 10
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What bothers me about the matter is how many Time readers will chose
Watchmen for their first comic experience and will walk away thinking that it
is typical for the medium.
********************************************************** ************************
What single "graphic novel" would be typical for the medium?
Calling "Maus" a work of fiction would be very controversial.
Frank Miller's Batman stories would probably get more opposotion, and as Mr. Byrne pointed out, they're influenced by Watchmen.
I'm not sure that there's a single "novel" length Lee-Kirby Fantastic 4
story, and Mister Byrne's "The trial of Galactus" is out of print.
"The Dark Phoenix Saga" provides payoff to years worth of storylines, so it certainly wouldn't qualify as a novel.
"The Life & Times of Uncle Scrooge" was just released in TPB form within the last few months.
"A Contract With God" is more an anthology than a single novel.
"Preacher" is fun of hell, but makes Watchmen look clean. It's also a
series of graphic novels. The same could be said of Alan Moore's Swamp
Thing, and Neil Gaiman's Sandman.
* edit- "Enigma" was great, but it's even more obscure than Watchmen,
so I can't really expect the editors of Watchmen to be familiar with
it, much less pick it over Watchmen. In addition, if Enigma appeared on
the list, there'd be (unfair) criticisms about a gay love story
representing every comic book.
Edited by Thomas Mets on 23 October 2005 at 12:41pm
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Flavio Sapha
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 11
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I still don't get this "corrupting" thing.
As the song goes, why can't we have "the Kinsey Report sitting next to
Love Story"?
Where were the editors who dilligently pasted Murphy Anderson's heads
over Jack Kirby's art while this "corruption" was going on?
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Darragh Greene
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: Ireland
Posts: 1812
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 12
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Jon, Promethea doesn't offer a dark view; it's thoroughly humanist in
its message, so it's precisely the opposite of Moore's soulless productions
of the '80s.
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