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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133854
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 1
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Some people just don't get Watchmen, do they?
*****
Apparently you don't.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 2
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I, myself, gave up on the series (read in xerox form before the books were actually published) with the origin of Rorschach.+++++ The Kitty Genovese thing, right, JB? ***** I thought that was utterly tasteless, to be sure, but it was not what pushed me out of WATCHMEN. What did that was the revelation that Rorschach had been crazy all along, even before he became Rorschach. That, in fact, he became Rorschach because he was crazy, he was not driven over the edge by all that he confronted as Rorschach.
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Jay Matthews
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 3
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John Byrne wrote:
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You liked it, others didn't. Perhaps that makes you shallow and easily amused, rather than they jaded and world-weary.
Two sides to every coin. |
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Agreed, which is one reason I thought mentioning my side of the coin
seemed to be warranted. The weight of numbers seemed to be on the
other side. I did direct my comment to the tone of the faint
praise itself, not the individuals themselves. I don't really
consider world weary to be necessarily pejorative.
John Byrne wrote:
| I thought that was utterly tasteless, to be sure,
but it was not what pushed me out of WATCHMEN. What did that was the
revelation that Rorschach had been crazy all along, even before he
became Rorschach. That, in fact, he became Rorschach because he was crazy, he was not driven over the edge by all that he confronted as Rorschach. |
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I tend to agree heartily with this sentiment, though it didn't drive me
away. I identified most with Rorschach, so Moore's depiction of
him doesn't speak well of my personality type. But there were
many things about the worldview in the Watchmen that were almost
laughable to me, and yet I still found it compelling reading. I
am a Reagan Republican, the last cold warrior. I used to make my
college roommates furious by calmly stating that the U.S. would win a
total nuclear war with the U.S.S.R. if forced to do it. But I
still found the Watchmen fascinating. Go figure.
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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9704
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 4
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That was all part of Moore's misunderstanding of superheroes. He's one
of those people who believe that you'd have to be crazy in order to want
to dress up in a colorful costume and fight crime. Read his "Hi, I'm Alan
Moore, and I missed the point of this entire series" introduction to the
original Dark Knight Returns hardcover.
I enjoyed Watchmen when it came out, despite its cynical view of
superheroes -- if only because, at the time, that was something new, and
it was a lot of fun looking through the book for all the little clues and
foreshadowy bits, and trying to solve the mystery was a great topic of
discussion among me and my friends.
However, as the years have gone on and its success (combined with other
books, DKR being a proniment example) tainted the tone of superhero
comics in the past twenty-five years, my enjoyment of the series has
waned. I'm still a big fan of the art, but not so much of the writing.
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Arvid Spejare
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 386
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 5
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For those who haven't read it, click here for some great Watchmen annotations.
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Jacob P Secrest
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4068
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 6
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I loved WATCHMEN, crazy protaganists and all.
I identified most with Rorschach, his complete and utter pessimism, the
insanity (of sorts) that led him to become Rorschach, even though I have
very different political views.
I really did enjoy WATCHMEN, begining to end, I felt it is as many said,
one of the greatest works in comic history, it's brilliant, the characters all
have a tragic depth to them, and all the work Moore put into, background
information, stuff like that, I just found the book extremely enjoyable.
And that's basically all I have to say about.
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James C. Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4705
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 7
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I liked it then (as I assume I still like it, although I haven't read it since I bought the trade afterwards.) But there was a reason DC didn't let him use the Charlton characters for it, and in a way what DC was afraid it would do to the Charlton characters in fact it did to the whole genre, which was render it untenable.
It got a whole generation of fans coming at the superhero genre with the "he must be crazy to dress that way and do the things he does." It took the hero out of the superhero and aside from the impossible science you really cannot have a superhero without the hero. It put large doses of cynic into the mix. And cynicism is kryptonite to superheroics. If you don't believe in your characters and your characters don't believe in good and evil (or right and wrong, however you want to put it), it just doesn't work.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36181
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 8
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But James, that makes modern superheroes more "complex" more "complicated" more "layered" and ultimately more "real". C'mon! Get with the program!
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Jay Matthews
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 11:05am | IP Logged | 9
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One way of putting it is that the Watchmen ushered in the post-modern
era of comics, a development which had already occurred in other
literary forms in 20th century (the novel, poetry, and so on).
I'm not happy with the post-modern state of literature, and I'm not happy with the post-modern state of comics.
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James C. Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4705
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 10
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Onions are layered. They stink and make me cry. Draw your own conclusions.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133854
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 11
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You liked it, others didn't. Perhaps that makes you shallow and easily amused, rather than they jaded and world-weary.Two sides to every coin. ++++ Agreed, which is one reason I thought mentioning my side of the coin seemed to be warranted. **** Too bad you felt the need to wrap your "side of the coin" in an insult to everyone who takes the opposing position.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133854
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 12
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One way of putting it is that the Watchmen ushered in the post-modern era of comics…***** That happened in 1961, with the publication of the first issue of THE FANTASTIC FOUR.
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