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James C. Taylor
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 1  

 John Byrne wrote:
It's about the characters and the plot.
 Mike Murray wrote:
In other words, it's about the writer(s).

No. Not at all. Character and plot is what writers do, not who they are. As nice as a guy and as good as a writer as Marc Guggenheim is, no show he's worked on has been about him.

If his replacements are as good as he is, if they understand the characters as well and the plot structures and what makes the wheel turn 'round, the show stays on the air and most people don't even notice he's gone.

In fact, that is what is strived for. The Greatest American Hero was the first show where I was paying attention to who wrote the episode because in those days there was such a drop off in quality (IMO) between the episodes Stephen J. Cannell himself wrote and the other writers wrote. Eventually he built a talent pool of writers closer to his own ability / style and I stopped being able to tell that he himself wrote any particular episode.

All of this applies to comics if they wish to continue to be a mass appeal medium.
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Rob Hewitt
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 2  

 How many people went to see movies in the 80's because Spielberg's name was slapped on them. 

***

I would say Stephen Spielberg is a big exception.  Although there are some guys who have at least some fans who would seek a movie, or a type of movie, done by that person.

Tv? probably most people give it a shot based on characters/stories/genres.   A few people probably respond to the "From the creator of Survivor" though it isn't guarantee. For every Apprentice, there is the Restaurant.

Books, though, often build a following based on authors.



Edited by Rob Hewitt on 26 October 2005 at 1:16pm
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James C. Taylor
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 3  

 Jon Juzan wrote:
How many people went to see movies in the 80's because Spielberg's name was slapped on them?

While there are some who see a movie because a director has directed it (Alfred Hitchcock was a star director in this sense, and to a degree M. Night Shyamalan as well), for the most part, director and star are only factors for most people and ultimately what gets them in the seats is the story (or the perception of the story from the advertising.)
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Thomas Mets
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 4  

That's one thing that TV shows and movies do right in this respect. Other than a few isolated examples, nobody cares about the director of a movie or TV show (ESPECIALLY television). It's about the characters and the plot.
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I think you're neglecting the importance of the actors on shows, and especially in movies. And people do care about the directors of movies. I don't think War of the Worlds would've made as much money with Cruise & Spielberg, or Mr & Mrs Smith would've made what ir did without Pitt & Jolie. On the other hand, movies like Fantastic 4, Madagascar, and Robots were successes because of the appeal to fans who liked other work of the genre, but this often happens in comics (note the brief popularity of retro books with no name creative teams.)

One reason the role, and popularity of the writer is more limited in these fields is the increased size of the cast. Regarding writers on TV, I can't even think of a TV show on today with only one writer (even South Park has 3.)

Movies are often years late, but the audience doesn't know, because movies are 99% of the time released in complete installments, with work nearly finished (if not completely finished) on future installments (ie- Kill Bill 2, Matrix Revolutions, the last 2 Lord of the Rings movies) when Volume 1 comes out.

The JLA are out-Watchmen-ing the Watchmen characters these days. I'd like to see someone draw a comic that shows the Justice League brainwashing and breaking villain's necks and the Watchmen characters standing off to the side, looking disgusted.
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That would be a nice satire, although it can only be done for a single issue.


Edited by Thomas Mets on 26 October 2005 at 1:23pm
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Rob Hewitt
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 5  

I would say a star in a tv show or movie can go along way to get people to sample it (or stay away from it).

Actors can matter.

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Todd Hembrough
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 6  

Rob,

Law and Order and ER both contradict that comment to a great degree.  In both series there has been such great turnover in the 'stars' that the shows stand on their own, are independent of their 'stars', and (IMHO) are better for it (at least L&O, i try not to watch ER).

T
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 7  

I stay away from CSI: Miami because David Caruso is on it.
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James C. Taylor
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 8  

 Rob Hewitt wrote:
Actors can matter.

Actors do matter, especially as over time character and actor entwine. But in most cases it is the what the actor brings to the character originally that gets us started.
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Mike Murray
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 9  

"If his replacements are as good as he is, if they understand the characters as well and the plot structures and what makes the wheel turn 'round, the show stays on the air and most people don't even notice he's gone."

And that's the problem - we're talking about comic book artists.  Unless the fill-in artist is able to ape the style of the creator in question - Hitch, in my example - to an incredible degree, even a casual reader will notice the change.  And it might not even be a change in "quality", because that's a hard thing to define, or at least it's arguable - but we all know that in reading a TPB such a change can be jarring, if not displeasing.  Bringing in even a master artist, a Mignola or a Kubert, to pencil part 5 of a 6-part story, creates that same discontinuity.

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James C. Taylor
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 10  

 Mike Murray wrote:
And that's the problem - we're talking about comic book artists. Unless the fill-in artist is able to ape the style of the creator in question - Hitch, in my example - to an incredible degree, even a casual reader will notice the change.

But if the replacement is "good", it won't matter that they notice. There was all kinds of discontinuity when some brash new artist named Byrne took over for Dave Cockrum on Uncanny X-Men. But he was good. And people didn't care.
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Mike Bunge
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 11  

"I think you're neglecting the importance of the actors on shows, and especially in movies. And people do care about the directors of movies. I don't think War of the Worlds would've made as much money with Cruise & Spielberg, or Mr & Mrs Smith would've made what ir did without Pitt & Jolie."

That's true, but comic creators are nothing like actors.  The characters in comics are like actors.  Imagine if you produced a movie starring Pitt and Jolie and promoted it by talking about the writer or cinematographer.

Mike

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Rob Hewitt
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Posted: 26 October 2005 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 12  

Rob,

Law and Order and ER both contradict that comment to a great degree.  In both series there has been such great turnover in the 'stars' that the shows stand on their own, are independent of their 'stars', and (IMHO) are better for it (at least L&O, i try not to watch ER).
***

I said CAN.  Formula matters too.  Look, I'd go to any movie Sylvester Stallone was in just about. Most people, today, probably wouldn't.  But lets say they did.  If he was in Chicago, say, same exact story otherwise, people would probably stay away, just because "Hmm, Sly Stallone in a muscial that ran on Broadway? Can't be good."  I'd still go. 

On TV, Michael J, Fox, Ted Danson, Tom Selleck, Michael Landon, Lucille Ball all built a certain love from the auidence.  So, when they did their next thing, people tuned in.  But they stayed based on characters and story.  So Tom Selleck's show the Closer didn't last.  Fox's did.

Like Seann WIlliam Scott. I liked him as Stifler.  But i only want to see him in Stifler like parts.

I wouldn;t be watching Boston Legal without WIlliam Shatner. I tried it because of him, and his emmy. I stayed because, despite the weak cast around him, James Spader and Shatner are a hoot, and look like they are having fun. It is the combo of Shatner as that character that makes it extra fun.

But I think actors can build up a certain goodwill with an audience that last for X amount of times, until that actor has to deliever with that material.

When a trailer plays with Bruce Willis in it, it gets my attention at the least. On the other hand, it didn't matter to me who was in Star Wars Sith-even if Jeanine Garafolo was in it, I'd have seen it.

 

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