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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | 1
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... and all the density in those pages.
===========
Too bad more comics today don't copy that part of it.
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16614
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | 2
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An entertaining read with a bit of a let down ending.
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Bob Simko
Byrne Robotics Security
Negative Mod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 5981
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | 3
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Predictable drek
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Kurt Evans
Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 02 September 2004
Posts: 1243
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 10:45pm | IP Logged | 4
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I like it. It's not the best comic I've ever read. But I really like intriquate stories where everything is very carefully woven in. Every issue represents an important thread of the final product, and the final product itself is too big to grasp until the last issue.
Ultimately, I think DKR is a lot better. Alan Moore has told better stories. Dave Gibbons has drawn better pictures. But it's still very good, it's very rarely that I read anything in comics today that I enjoy as much. I'll watch the movie.
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Kurt Evans
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Joined: 02 September 2004
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | 5
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Oh, and Charlize Theron is definitely an actress I could get behind! She has my full support.
...obviously, I meant it that way.
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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | 6
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I loved it at the time. It was far more sophisticated than the
mainstream superhero comics I was reading at the time. But I don't
think I'd put it at the absolute apex of comics storytelling (though
from a purely technical standpoint it is really stupendous -- Dave
Gibbons is one of the greats, let there be no doubt), and I don't feel
the need to read it again to see how it holds up. I'm sure Moore would
rather be known for From Hell anyway.
People talk about the "influence" Watchmen had on superheroes -- up until recently (Identity Crisis, etc.) I didn't really see it. Watchmen
was very cerebral. Precisely how was this reflected in, say, early
Image comics? The whole grim-and-gritty thing seemed far more rooted in
Dark Knight than in Watchmen. (Yes, I know, Rorshach...but I don't remember Rorshach inspiring any characters in the late 80s/early 90s. Honest.)
I do think that Jon Godson is largely missing Moore's point in Watchmen.
It's an unexamined assumption in many superhero comics that being a
vigilante -- even a non-lethal one, as they usual are -- is virtuous,
is "doing what's right." I think that's rather debatable, at least when
we're talking about Batman and his descendents. They're doing the job
of police without themselves being police, and despite their desire to
save innocent lives, their motives involve revenge, guilt, etc. They're
not pure altruists like Superman (who has no equivalent in Watchmen
anyway -- Dr. Manhattan doesn't count), who in any case is usually
fighting super-powered or super-technological bag guys, or
extraterrestrials, i.e. threats beyond what normal humans could handle
anyway.
If Superman were real -- and was still the altruist we read about --
I'd feel safer, because I know he'd try to save people from Hurricane
Katrina or earthquakes in Pakistan or what have you. If Batman were
real I'd want him locked up for trying to be a cop without a badge --
one who would probably end up beating up innocent people.
(This is largely why Batman: Year One
is my favorite Batman story. In the context of a Gotham where the
police dept. is utterly corrupt, Batman's vigilantism is at least
relatively justifiable.)
So I can't blame Moore for writing a critique of the genre, because parts of the genre deserved critique.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 7
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This is largely why Batman: Year One is my favorite Batman story. In the context of a Gotham where the police dept. is utterly corrupt, Batman's vigilantism is at least relatively justifiable.***** Let me say, up front, that I thoroughly enjoyed YEAR ONE for what it was -- which was basically an ElseWorld story before we really had ElseWorld stories. Just like DKR. In another time, both would simply have been called "Imaginary Stories" (and no one would have their heads so far up their butts that they would feel the need to say "But aren't they all?") However -- to embrace the YEAR ONE notion of a corrupt police force making Batman "justifiable" is to miss the previous 50ish years of the character. Batman does not operate outside or against the police force. He operates with them, but in a world where there are menaces that are beyond the scope of standard police proceedures. Batman is Gotham's one-man "Impossible Missions Squad". He's the one the cops call to for help when things get out of their league.
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Steve Horton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3574
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 8
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WATCHMEN wasn't even the best comic book of 1987.
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 11:09pm | IP Logged | 9
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JB:
In another time, both would simply have been called "Imaginary Stories" (and
no one would have their heads so far up their butts that they would feel the
need to say "But aren't they all?")
=============
Have there been uses of that line other than in "Whatever Happened To The
Man of Tomorrow"? I thought its use there was more of an asterisk next to
the Imaginary Story label, noting it as simultaneously non-continuity and
something of an official ending story for the Silver Age Superman, than it
was a statement about all comics stories.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | 10
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"That line" has become the standard smart-ass
response to any mention of an 'imaginary story'. Yet
another way for some fans to declare themselves to
be so much superior to these silly comic books.
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Jason Schulman
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Joined: 08 July 2004
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | 11
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JB -- I know. But in all the narratives I know, Batman starts out
outside the law. He may become deputized or what have you. But he
doesn't start out offering his services to Jim Gordon as a special cop.
He just goes out and busts the heads of street criminals.
If you think about it there really is an underlying philosophy that
links characters ranging from Batman to Rorshach. Humanity is
essentially evil, and if left to their own devices any
large group of people will drop into lawlessness and anarchy. The only
thing that can stop this happening is one great man rising above all
the rest and keeping order by dealing out harsh, impromptu, justice on
those who get out of line. Occasionally evil people threaten society
and we can’t afford to combat them with our conventional institutions.
Normal justice, etc, must be put on hold while the great man sorts
things out for us.
Batman -- who, even after he becomes a sort-of-cop, never exactly reads
suspects their Miranda rights -- represents the soft version of this
philosophy; Rorshach, the Punisher, et al. represent the hard, pure
version.
You can certainly get interesting characters out of this philosophy --
I always liked Daredevil in particular because of the lawyer/vigilante
dichotomy (talk about trying to have it both ways!) -- but it ain't all
that noble once you think about it.
And JB -- I've never understood your problem with the "aren't they all"
statement -- I always assumed that all Moore meant was that "imaginary
stories" are no less "important" than "canonical" stories, and that
decades of Superman stories are about to be declared "imaginary" in
1986 shouldn't diminish whatever emotional connection one might have
with them.
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Martin Kogan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 July 2004
Location: Argentina
Posts: 1477
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 11:27pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think Watchmen is great. I agree that it worked for the better that they created new characters and not used the Charlton characters.
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