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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | 1
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Don't know exactly what your confusion is, Jon, but Mark pegged what I wrote correctly.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 2
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But John, no responsibility laid at the feet of editorial or talent who took was was basically an "Elseworlds" story and injected the mainstream books with that sensibility? To me, it's like blaming something for ever having been written in the first place rather than the people responsible for understanding that it doesn't apply across-the-board to all characters in their stable.
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Rob Hewitt
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 3
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I love how in all these threads someone comes along and says "that shows you shouldn't be reading superhero comics."
I also think Frank Miller gets a strange pass from most fans, including many on this board.
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | 4
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The "culprit" in this crime of "darkening" won't be any single comic that inspired others (e.g. Watchmen, DKR, The Punisher) -- but the creators and editors who decided to change the overall balance of the comic universes until they more closely resembled DKR and Watchmen than what they had been for the previous 50 years.
Wolverine was never played better than he was as a second banana in the JB/Claremont X-Men. Punisher's greatest stories are when he guested/showed up as the villain (particularly in two stories drawn by Frank Miller). When these guys became the flagships of the industry and seemed to draw all other heroes into their wake, someone at the top should have had the presence to resist the trend.
Edited by Mark Haslett on 23 October 2005 at 4:21pm
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John Mietus
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | 5
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Oh, absolutely I blame those people who took the material out of context
and applied it to the mainstream books. But frankly (heh) I still don't think
the story really needed to be told in any context, regardless.
But as I've said before, I'm one of the few Batman fans who doesn't care for
Frank Miller's take on the character (because I don't think that he "gets it,"
the best bits of "Year One" notwithstanding).
Tell stories about dark anti-heroes who are psychos all you want. Don't use
mainstream characters to tell them, is all.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 6
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Rob Hewitt wrote:
| I also think Frank Miller gets a strange pass from most fans, including many on this board. |
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Not in this thread. You read the ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN thread 'cause you posted in it, and Miller didn't get a pass from people on this board either. Don't create something that's not there, Rob.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:23pm | IP Logged | 7
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Mark Haslett wrote:
| The "culprit" in this crime of "darkening" won't be any single comic that inspired others (e.g. Watchmen, DKR, The Punisher) -- but the creators and editors who decided to change the overall balance of the comic universes until they more closely resembled DKR and Watchmen than what they had been for the previous 50 years. |
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My point exactly, Mark. Thanks for saying it better than I could.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | 8
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Rob Hewitt wrote:
| I love how in all these threads someone comes along and says "that shows you shouldn't be reading superhero comics." |
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Being the one who said that, I love how others try to a) defend reading mainstream superhero comics while tearing them down, and b) make comments without anything substantive. Fun times, eh Rob?
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James C. Taylor
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | 9
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Rob, I specifically haven't discussed Frank and Dark Knight because this isn't a thread about it. Matt points out that Frank doesn't get a free pass here (as neither does our host.)
Alan Moore fans and Grant Morrison fans seem to think they're the only ones who take shots here. They don't. The problem may be the why of their taking shots.
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John Mietus
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 10
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So Matt, you're saying, "Don't condemn Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns
for darkening mainstream comics, just those who were inspired by those
books?" I'm sorry, that doesn't wash for me, unless you can explain how
that's not like, "Don't condemn the first serial killer, just those who were
copycats." And no, I'm not saying Moore and Miller were serial killers, I'm
using hyperbole to emphasize my curiosity.
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Flavio Sapha
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | 11
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About poisoning the water for super-heroes, checking out MARSHAL
LAW, published in 1987 is a MUST. This little piece of trash is the true bible
of the minds behind the Ultimates and the Authority. Makes the Comedian
seem like Bucky Barnes. Pat Mills admitedly hated super-heroes and did all
he could to make them disgusting. That's the British Invasion for you,
fellas.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 23 October 2005 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 12
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I understand what you're saying, John. I just don't agree with it. I don't agree that these were stories that never should have been told. I do, however, think it's the responsibility of the people who are in charge of taking care of the characters (EIC, group editors, associate editors, writers and/or artists) to not take them down a path that isn't for them. In the case of DKR, it's a fantasy story. No one should have ever taken it and made the "real" Batman more like Miller's Batman. That's not Miller's fault at all. That's the fault of the editor in charge of the line and the writers who decided it was a good idea. It's like blaming the first person to split the atom for all of the death and destruction caused to end WWII by dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the inventor of gunpowder for Lincoln's death.
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