But is the darkening of the super-hero genre necessarily a bad thing? Nothing wrong with a dark and gritty superhero tale, is there now? Just as long as they are not all dark and gritty.

Watchmen is an important comic as it changed expectations in both readers and creators of what could be done in the genre. Just like Stan, Jack and Steve did in the sixties. The problem is that most writers in the field are not as good as Moore so they're not going to produce comics anywhere nearly as good as him.

Watchmen should be viewed as only one particular way to do superhero comics, not as the only way.

However -- to embrace the YEAR ONE notion of a corrupt police force making Batman "justifiable" is to miss the previous 50ish years of the character. Batman does not operate outside or against the police force. He operates with them, but in a world where there are menaces that are beyond the scope of standard police proceedures. Batman is Gotham's one-man "Impossible Missions Squad". He's the one the cops call to for help when things get out of their league.

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This is certainly the Batman I first met. However, I think there's something very primal about Frank's Batman -- he's the guy busting heads and doing what the cops -- even the good ones -- can't or won't.

What made sense to me about Frank's Batman is that the Joker or Two-Face or some costumed villain with a gimmick didn't kill Bruce's parents -- some two-bit hood did. Bruce dedicated himself *at that point* to "warring on criminals" when arguably he could have just given more money to the cops. It's not like he realized at that age that Gotham needed a protector who could handle villains who didn't even exist yet (in other words, he didn't have Fox Mulder's origin).

Criminals aren't really scared of cops in the Millerverse (or arguably in our universe), so Bruce became something terrifying that does frighten them. What blew me away -- and still does -- about DARK KNIGHT was seeing Batman take on *actual* criminals, the ones in our own world. When he breaks through the door and beats the crap out of the rapist or when he smashes the hand of the pimp who was about to slice up a hooker. In a way, I'd liken it to JB's argument about SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE. Batman dealing with aliens or even Clayface is similar to seeing Superman stop missiles from destroying California. Cool as hell, yeah, but dealing with real crime is like when Superman rips open the car door: It makes me jump out of my seat.

Flavio mentioned fans expecting "growth" and "change" in charactrers.  Dick aging to 18 and leaving for college certainly fits that bill and, again, put the question in fans heads about other characters "aging" and "growing" across the board.  I certainly think that fits the bill, as well as the split of two formerly incredibly friendly, father-son characters set up such that Dick couldn't really come back and be Robin to Bruce's Batman is dark in and of itself. Claws through flesh dark?  Obviously not.  Darkening of the characters to "age" and "grow" them?  Certainly.

Jon Godson wrote:  Matt Reed wrote: Claws through flesh dark? Obviously not. Darkening of the characters to "age" and "grow" them? Certainly. ?????????????????

Batman.  Robin.  Bruce.  Dick.  Friendly, fun father/son relationship.  30+ years.

Morphed into

1) Dick aging, 2) resenting Bruce, 3) leaving the mansion, 4) giving up Robin. All in a short amount of time (2 - 4 in one issue).

I'd consider that "dark" in order to "age" and "grow" them.