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Flavio Sapha Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Brazil Posts: 12912
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 1
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Hrm...
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 2
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Thomas Mets wrote:
Because I enjoy your work on Uncanny X-Men,
Fantastic Four, Superman, Next Men, and other books (I've very much
looking forward to your JLA classified arc with Roger Stern). I also like
reading your opinions, and the opinions of the other fans here, even if
they're very often different from mine. I also like debating comic books. |
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Thomas, I'd like you to meet the point of what John was saying. Point?
Pooooint? Sorry, Thomas, it appears you just missed it.
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Thanos Kollias Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2004 Location: Greece Posts: 5009
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 3
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My problems with Watchmen:
1. There wer no "heroes" in there. Everybody was less than heroic. The only who tried to do the right thing was out of his ind and did the wrong way.
2. I hated the side stories, the paper clips, the books, the artcles, the pirate comics and all the other stuff Moore used to embelish his story and even let you on some of the clues. I know many people like them a lot, but I really think that it undermines the medium's ability to stand on its own.
3. The coloring. Oh my God, it ruined the art for me in so many places. If it hadn't been for Gibbons's inspiring work I may not have been able to read it through.
4. Something that Watchmen and Moore and directly rensponsible for: It changed the superhero comic-books, a change for the worse, imo.
5. The last page. "Make yor own ending" is so cliche!
6. For a supposedely realistic and so often cited as an exaplarey realistic approach to superheroes, both Dr. Manhattan and the "alien monster" were too exaggerating and way beyond realistic.
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Jon Godson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005 Posts: 2468
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 4
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Something that Watchmen and Moore and directly rensponsible for: It
changed the superhero comic-books, a change for the worse, imo.
***************
Dark Knight Returns was more responsible than Watchmen for changing
superhero comics, and even if Miller was inspired by Watchmen Xeroxes, I'm
going to hold him accountable for the contents of Dark Knight, not Moore.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36181
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 5
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Any reason we can't say both? Like many things in life, ideas and concepts can happen nearly simultaneously and it can be next to impossible to decipher where exactly it all began.
I'd also contend that, more than the books themselves, it's the editors and certain writers of mainstream superheroes who allowed themselves to travel down the path that two books, divorced from regular continuity (and, in the case of WATCHMEN, had nothing to do with the DCU altogether), explored. Blaming the books and authors themselves seems rather like blaming Wolverine and Punisher (and their respective creators) for ever having been created in the first place.
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Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
The very first character we're introduced to, the one who is the
catalyst for the unraveling of the mystery to begin with. |
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...So? You may sympathize with his pangs of conscience -- the guy who's
happy to kill the "gooks" in Vietnam is suddenly aghast at Ozymandias's
plan to save the world from immanent nuclear war -- but again, so what?
You think Moore intended us to identify with a near-fascist rapist?
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Jon Godson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005 Posts: 2468
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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Any reason we can't say both? Like many things in life, ideas and concepts
can happen nearly simultaneously and it can be next to impossible to
decipher where exactly it all began.
*******************
I agree, but most of the blame on this board seems to have been falling on
Watchmen and Alan Moore, not Miller and Dark Knight. Let's say both.
Or is criticizing Miller to the same degree as Moore not acceptable here?
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36181
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 8
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You haven't read the ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN thread, have you? If you had, you wouldn't ask that question.
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James C. Taylor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4705
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 9
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All of the main characters in Watchmen are compromised human beings and nothing approaching a paragon exists aside the Golden Age Nite Owl. Nite Owl II is overweight and entirely ineffectual, and he is, arguably, the best of the lot.
Cynicism. Onions. Enjoy.
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Flavio Sapha Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Brazil Posts: 12912
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 10
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What about the deaths of Phoenix and Elektra? Didn't they represent
landmarks in the lives of the respective series they happened in, darkening
the super-hero genre and conditioning fans to demand "change" and
"growth"?
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Jon Godson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005 Posts: 2468
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 11
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What about the deaths of Phoenix and Elektra? Didn't they represent
landmarks in the lives of the respective series they happened in, darkening
the super-hero genre and conditioning fans to demand "change" and
"growth"?
*****************
I remember Claremont/Byrne stories in which Wolverine unleashed his fury
and claws in a manner that had yet been seen. Pretty dark stuff.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36181
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 12
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Go back even father, Flavio. Dick aging and going off to college in BATMAN. It was a pretty dark split for the two, aged a character who had remained basically the same age for nearly 40 years, and begged the question if he's that old, how about all the other teen heroes Robin interacted with?
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