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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133774
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 5:50am | IP Logged | 1
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As to "Alvin" -- not worth the effort, guys. Another "Crusader" who has come to save you all from yourselves, and has no interest in letting reality intrude on his personal mindset.Move along, move along. Nothing to see here.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133774
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 5:58am | IP Logged | 2
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Andrew Paul Leyland: I don't think John, a pro of many years standing, would object to genuine artistic critique. **** Well, certainly I never have. Problem lies in those who think "this sucks" is a "genuine artistic critique". Note (as I mention above) how the word "rational" is applied to criticism that is more often anything but. Wander thru a few message boards and see how many times someone who asks "Why does your work suck so badly?" takes offense when the party questioned responds in kind. "All I did was ask a simple question," comes the defense. Every artist truly worthy of the title works constantly to improve his product -- but the internet, alas, is harsh and stony ground when one is looking for seeds from which valid criticism can grow. (By the way, as Frank Miller delights in pointing out, any comment about the work of an artist is "criticism". Altho the word has acquired a negative connotation in the minds of many, it does not actually have one. If it did, a phrase like "negative criticism" would be an unnecessary redundancy. "This work is bad" and "this work is good" are both "critcisms" -- or, will be when they are properly fleshed out, at least!) From my own experience, we can put together a short list of the kinds of useless comments that quickly transform themselves into mantras: All his faces are the same ----- demonstably not true He never draws backgrounds ---- also demonstably not true The work looks rushed ---- impossible to tell by looking at it how much time is invested in a piece of artwork His old stuff was better ---- a matter of taste, not undeniable fact More than once I have had fans tell me they don't like my work, and when I ask why, the response all too often is "because it's bad". This is not helpful.
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Mikael Bergkvist Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 April 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1857
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 6:13am | IP Logged | 3
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"More than once I have had fans tell me they don't like my work"
That's not fans, rather snobs who simply wont like whatever is approved of by the general public at any given time.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133774
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 6:39am | IP Logged | 4
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"More than once I have had fans tell me they don't like my work"++++ That's not fans, rather snobs who simply wont like whatever is approved of by the general public at any given time. ***** That's only true in some cases. I have had fans approach me with genuine, helpful comments about my work. ("Approach" is a key word here. These are often people who have come up to my table at conventions, to meet and greet face to face, not to snipe from behind the anonymous safety of the internet. "You suck" tends to be entirely the province of the latter.)
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Mikael Bergkvist Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 April 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1857
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 6:48am | IP Logged | 5
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"That's only true in some cases. I have had fans approach me with genuine, helpful comments about my work"
That's a rare thing you got there, and hardly one that support any of the "Bad Byrne" theories, because then nobody would dare to, would they? They'd expect an axe wielding madman chasing them down the hallway if they said anything remotly critical.
On the upside, this maybe explains why you constantly evolve as an artist even today - that people challange you to, and that you let them?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133774
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 7:13am | IP Logged | 6
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That's a rare thing you got there, and hardly one that support any of the "Bad Byrne" theories, because then nobody would dare to, would they?They'd expect an axe wielding madman chasing them down the hallway if they said anything remotly critical.***** Well. as I've mentioned before, the "Bad Byrne" stories are rarely first person, and even when they are, there tend to be some not-so-subtle shadings that always seem to be lost on the person relating the tale --- "All I did was ask him to sign 15 books while he was having lunch...."
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17707
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 7
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John Byrne: Mike Carlin sent me xeroxes of the pencils for the JLA arc Jose [Garcia-Lopez] has worked on with Gail -- and I am now seriously considering looking for honest work. . .
Yup. The guy sure sounds conceited, huh?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133774
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 8
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I'll add something here. Let's see how fast the trolls can twist this one:The people who say my old stuff was better are right. The people who say all my faces look the same are right. The people who say I don't draw backgrounds are right. The people who say the work looks rushed -- well, they are wrong and they always will be. That's far, far too subjective. But the others are all right. Just at the wrong time. I've mentioned this before. All the criticisms of my work seem to kick in when I am not actually doing the things I am criticized for doing! There was, indeed, a point at the beginning of my career when all my men tended to have the same face, all my women tended to have the same face -- but I was aware of it, and I worked hard to overcome it. Hardly anyone complained about it at the time. It was something I saw as a flaw in my own work, and struggled to correct. Later, when it was no longer true, it became a fan mantra to say all my faces look the same. There was a fairly prolonged period on FF and ALPHA FLIGHT when the backgrounds became -- to put it kindly -- sparse. I have explained this many times as being due to my unconsciously dropping backgrounds to leave room for the lettering, when I was sending in inked pages. Again, there was barely a whisper of complaint at the time, and only much later, when I was lettering my own work and so knew exactly where the lettering would be, and so returned to fully rendered backgrounds, did this chant begin. And, as is so often the case, it only takes a couple of panels in an issue to "prove" that I "never" do backgrounds. Yep -- the people who complain about the faces, the backgrounds, etc -- they're all right. They just don't happen to be on the same page as me. Literally!
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Leroy Douresseaux Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1657
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 9
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Regarding Spider-Man: Chapter One: To this day I don't understand why some people hate it so. I was shocked to encounter on the Internet (and a few times in actually LCS's) people who thought it was so god awful. When it came out, I couldn't get enough. I devoured each issue and seriously waited almost with baited breath for more.
I think some of the haters are (1) people who would hate any JB book and (2) a small band of super-powered web trolls with high speed Internet access who post and post and post and post until their 20 or so individual opinions seem like 20,000.
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Trevor Curran Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 48
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 8:41am | IP Logged | 10
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I can't say I read books after around 1980 or so, therefore I'm not
qualified to agree or disagree about the progress or your work,
JB. But, I will say this: to say only that your "faces look the
same," or comment about backgrounds simply ignores the greater picture,
and that is the style of a particular artist. I guess you could
call the style a trademark, too.
Kirby had his. Adams, his. You, yours. Visually, your
style attracted my eye, led me into the books (from the covers, or
first pages) and welcomed me into the total experience of the book: the
storyline, the construction of panels/pages, characterization, color,
dialogue. It's what makes comic books great: the totality
of all those experiences sprawling across a dozen or twenty
pages. And when a group of people come together and "synch-up"
i.e., writer, penciller, inker, colorist, then the coherence of those
artists makes the experience even greater.
Folks who have to find reasons to complain, harangue, criticize, and
carp are just those group of people who don't get it. I'll bet
envy plays into that mix of griping, too.
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Roger A Ott II Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5371
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 11
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Hey Trevor, like the avatar. That's from JB's IRON MAN #197 cover, isn't it?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133774
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Posted: 16 October 2005 at 8:46am | IP Logged | 12
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The logic behind the criticisms of CHAPTER ONE were sometimes more amazing than the criticisms themselves. There were a number of people, for instance, who said that Marvel had no need for such MAN OF STEEL-like projects (which CO wasn't, anyway...) since Marvel's history was "perfect". And, yes, that was the word used. "Perfect".When these folk were of the more rational variety, I would engage them in conversation as best I could, and quickly discovered what I already suspected: most of them had not been reading Marvel comics from Day One, and did not realize how much of that "perfect" history was, in fact, retcons. This is not all that surprising. When I was getting back into fandom, in the early 70s, I devoured everything I could in the way of back issues and (significantly) books relating the history of the industry. Perhaps I was just lucky. It has been a while since someone has published a history of comics that was not just an opinionated grouse-fest, but when I was coming back it seemed like the floodgates had opened, and the shelves of my local bookstore were full of the likes of "All in Color for a Dime", Jules Feiffer's "The Great Comic Book Heroes", a couple of quite scholarly European books, and, of course (tho not on the book shelves) Steranko's brilliant "History of Comics". Plus, as a reader who had been "present at conception", I also had my own memory to work from, and I knew how many times the Hulk had changed, for instance, or what Herculean efforts had been deemed necessary (something I dispute to this day) to make the return of Captain America fit with what was previously known about the character. CHAPTER ONE banged into this "logic" full force -- and, of course, it had the misfortune of being published at a time when the Byrne Bashers were learning how to use multiple names on the internet, and also learning that others who posted there tended to have among their number a lot of people who were, frankly, too dumb to check the facts. If something was said [u[loudly enough and often enough, it became "true". I cite the "microscope" issue as the most obvious (and bewildering) example of this. As I have said on many an occasion, let us all be glad these particular lunatics were not running the asylum when Julie Schwartz and the rest had their Bright Idea in the mid-50s. The Silver Age would never have happened!
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