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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4075
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 1
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Just out of curiosity, how many people on this board
let interviews and creators' opinions influence their
purchasing habits? I've hung out with comics
creators who are total jerks in real life, and I've
continued to purchase their comics, and I've got
friends whose comic work doesn't appeal to me and
whose comics I rarely end up buying. Unless a
creator names me in person in an interview and
says some really nasty things about me, I'm not
likely to pass up on someone's work just because of
some off-the-cuff remarks about the comic industry,
fans or the superhero title he's currently writing or
drawing.
It seems that most of the British writers in comics try
to have fun with their interviews, and don't seem to
take them too seriously. Just because someone
says something irreverent in an interview doesn't
mean that he hates superheroes, other creators,
comic books or his fans. Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis,
Mark Millar and Grant Morrison always seem to
generate a weird level of anger toward them and
their works mainly because people latch onto one or
two phrases in their interviews and take them really,
really personally.
Check any interview (not just with the Brits) on
Newsarama, Comicon or Silver Bullet message
boards for evidence of this. Most of the interview can
be straightforward replies about the upcoming plans
for a comic, but it'll be one little phrase that people
latch onto and blow up into some personal crusade
against the creator. JB's interview on Comicon a
while back was derailed early on by one or two
people who got hung up on the phrase "art robot,"
and before you know it, that was the only aspect of
the interview that anyone was talking about.
--
On Walt Simonson vs. Rob Liefeld at Baltimore,
yeah, stuff like that's depressing, but if you're into
really good comics, it makes the conventions a lot
more pleasant. Would you rather stand in line for an
hour behind 200 Liefeld fans so that you can talk to
Mr. Youngblood for 30 seconds, or would you rather
spend about ten minutes chatting with Walt
Simonson and have an extra 50 minutes to track
down other artists and that back issue of Rom that
you're missing? I'd rather have a constant line of five
or six people who really enjoyed my work waiting to
talk to me than dozens of people who I'm not going
to look at as I'm signing 1500 variant covers an hour
that are going up on ebay and in comic shops
across the country the next week.
As much as I'm annoyed at all of the Hollywood stuff
they keep bringing to the San Diego Comic-Con
every year, that stuff brings in a lot of people, makes
money for the convention, and draws enough people
to those parts of the floor that I've got some elbow
room when I visit Artists' Alley and can talk to guys
like Gene Colan, Jerry Robinson and other greats at
length.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6940
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 2
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If an artist makes a story sing to me, then I find out that he calls superhero costumes "diapers," I'll have a dillemma. But I've never run into that problem.
Whenever I find a "creator" spouting off about the immaturity of costumed heroes and their desires to make it "real" -- I've found their work lacking the dynamism to make good superhero comics in the first place. They couldn't do it right even if they liked it.
The 8 page preview that started this thread is a great example. Those pages tell a tired old story in a really slow way; thus it seems cinematic and mature to some. Not to others, myself included. Give me Eisner, Caniff, Toth, and Kane on their worst days over Quitely any day.
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Jim O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2005
Posts: 336
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 3
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"Sorry. I thought you were making stupid points, but apparently you're just a cruddy writer. My bad.
Just out of interest, what was I playing to win?"
************************************
"What was I playing to win?"
You probably meant to ask "What do I get if I win?", huh?
I'm sorry, must be my own lack of comprehension.
Hmm.
Maybe you should structure your answers around a bi-monthly schedule; that way, you'll have plenty of time to check your own cruddy work before demonstrating to everyone here that your own writing is actually cruddier.
And it's "My mistake", not "my bad".
"My bad" is what a small child says when he spills food on the carpet.
Lastly, I've met Alex Ross several times (we both live in Chicago) and he's anything but an egomaniac.
And you know what? I'd rather read comics by a guy who works on licensed characters and loves 'em than read a book that's been "squeezed out" (aptly enough) by a guy who couldn't care less.
It's the difference between a Neal Adams or a Murphy Anderson (both of whom did plenty of commercial ad work) and a guy who doesn't really care.
Lastly, I went through my infatuation with "rock star image" types when I was a kid and the rock stars really were rock stars.
I've enjoyed plenty of Grant Morrison's comics work, but it makes me laugh whenever this guy starts living out his rock star fantasies in the comics arena because the music business couldn't care less about him.
G'night.
Edited by Jim O'Neill on 04 October 2005 at 4:31pm
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4075
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | 4
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Whenever I find a "creator" spouting off about the
immaturity of costumed heroes and their desires to
make it "real" -- I've found their work lacking the
dynamism to make good superhero comics in the
first place. They couldn't do it right even if they liked
it.
I'm automatically inclined to disagree with everything
you said because you felt the need to put the word
"creator" in quotes. If you're making a comic book,
you're a creator. Maybe you don't like the work, but
that doesn't mean that the people making it aren't
actually in the business of producing comic books.
On the basis of the rest of what you said, I've got to
disagree. Morrison's taking a different approach to
superhero comics than we've seen traditionally, but I
wouldn't say that he doesn't "get" superheroes. Look
at his run on JLA, Animal Man or X-Men, and you'll
see that he can do traditional superhero comics with
the best of the current writers. Your definition of
"doing it right" seems to be "doing it the way I like it,"
more than anything else.
I'll defend Eisner, Caniff, Toth and Kane until I'm blue
in the face (and have done so more than once), and
I'm sticking up for Quitely, too. A good artist is a
good artist whether it's Ditko and Kirby or Byrne and
Sienkiewicz or Quitely and Wieringo. I dig Quitely's
stuff and think he's really good at what he does, and
you're not a fan of his style, at least on superhero
comics. Doesn't mean he's not talented, or doesn't
like what he's doing, does it?
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Dave Farabee
Byrne Robotics Member
Quit Forum
Joined: 01 September 2004
Posts: 977
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 5
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"A preponderance of taste among the knowledgable, that's basically what I'm aiming for. That's a standard I could get behind."
**********
Good luck with that. At the Baltimore Con a couple of weeks ago, there was a steady line for Liefeld of about 200 people whenever he was signing.
**********
To be a bit more explicit: I'm not really counting fans among the knowledgable of which I speak. Most fans have none of the artistic training JB rightly cited as so important to being any kind of objective on the subject, nor the training to think critically about art which I'd also accept as having some authority.
Hey, I'm kinda making this up on the fly, I admit! Just hoping to come up with something where, if guys in positions of authority on comics were to champion so-and-so artist, we'd at least be inclined to give their words more merit. Those 200 fans waiting for Liefeld? Err, sorry, their opinions don't count given my criteria (unless they happen to be art grads or pro artists). But when JB says he thinks Liefeld is a bad artist, that does.
Just trying to find something more definitive for evaluating artists than popularity.
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Hugh Cherry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2004
Posts: 1397
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 6
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OK tell me how the HELL you get this:
So Alex Ross gets a free pass to produce work on
any schedule he likes because he's a big fanboy
who dresses in superhero costumes every
Halloween and draws licensed characters wreathed
in heavenly light, and is therefore One of Us, but
when Frank Quitely works on the same schedule
he's pissing all over the True Fans because he's
some weird furriner who just wants to work with
Grant Morrison. Plus he makes the characters look
all non-badass and gay and stuff.
From This:
Nope, because:
One, he's the kind of artist who knows his abilities,
loves his work, and can do what he says he'll do
(and more importantly NOT take on what he CAN'T).
Two, He (or one of his cronies) doesn't come online
and tell the fans that they should be "SOOOOOO
thankful" that they are getting his table crumbs when
he finishes his "real work".
QUOTE:
" Sorry. I thought you were making stupid
points, but apparently
you're just a cruddy writer. My bad." |
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Please allow me to dumb it down for you, so you can
comprehend it.
Alex Ross.
See Alex Paint. He paints very well.
He likes comics.
DC Likes Alex
They want him to paint pretty pictures.
He says "I can only do 12 pages a month"
They ask "can you put out 12 issues in 2 years"
He says "YES, and I will work until it gets done on
time!"
See Alex at his table 10-15 hours a day.
Paint Alex Paint.
Alex is a Professional.
Joe Somebody is a "real" artist.
He also paints pretty pictures. (HE REALLY DOES)
BUT Joe likes to play video games, watch TV, go to
cons.
He only wants to work 4 hours a day.
He thinks comics are silly.
He can only put out 1 issue every 3 months, but that
means no playstation sometimes (or cons, or I Love
Lucy)
DC likes Joe because he is HOT. He makes money
for them.
He takes the job because his good friend twists his
arm.
After 4 months he has almost 2 whole issues drawn,
and will probably not be on schedule, and will
definitely fall behind(There's a new Tony Hawk game
out), and besides, comics are dumb anyway, and
those dorks should be grateful that Joe is even
bothering to make art for them.
Joe is also a "professional".
And the moral is:
1- Alex likes what he does, and can stick to a
schedule and get the job done.
2- Joe Somebody is a f@ck-off.
3- If Alex Ross stops producing on time, and is
constantly shipping late, acting like an ass, the he
ALSO would be a f@ck-off.
(and consequently, if Joe Somebody started making
his deadlines, and actually doing his job correctly,
the he would cease to be a f@ck-off, and become a
professional)
Now can you follow that or does it need to be put in
smaller words?
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Dave Farabee
Byrne Robotics Member
Quit Forum
Joined: 01 September 2004
Posts: 977
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 7
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QUOTE:
| Quitely and the guy who painted that muddy Star Trek page above use page upon page to get across what those guys would do in a few panels. |
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Oy vey, don't let's get into judgements about efficiency based on two or three frickin' pages! Another debate for another time.
And "muddy"?
Okay, whatever...
QUOTE:
| Even if they SAID these two artists are super-duper in their opinions, they didn't abandon their efficient storytelling to adopt the ways of these "hot" artists. |
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Are you saying Quitely and Kordey are "hot artists"? Let me say again: they're not. Quitely has some cult popularity, and while I think he's phenomenal, I can objectively say that any popularity he's got is coming from being attached to high profile projects like NEW X-MEN and SUPERMAN. Observable fan reaction in my store has never been good. And Kordey? Outright disliked in most quarters, rightly or wrongly based largely on his pinch-hitting in the X-books and not the zillion other things he's done.
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16634
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 5:27pm | IP Logged | 8
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Hugh, that's beautiful!
You should publish that! :-)
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6940
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 9
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Andrew Farago: I'm automatically inclined to disagree with everything
you said because you felt the need to put the word
"creator" in quotes. If you're making a comic book,
you're a creator.
***
Eisner et al worked their entire careers as cartoonists. Then a new group decided that wasn't a cool enough name and they became "creators." Does Morrison "create" Superman when he writes these comics? This is an old saw around here -- use the term if you like it, but it's an indication of the gulf between us. I'm not surprised when someone embarrassed to be called a "cartoonist" is also embarrassed to draw superheroes.
Andrew Farago: On the basis of the rest of what you said, I've got to
disagree. Morrison's taking a different approach to
superhero comics than we've seen traditionally,
***
How long until a tradition sets in? Because he's doing this the same way things have been done for at least ten years. Stretched out, "cinematically" conceived, rehashed -- where's the trend-setting originality that's outside of tradition? The part where Luthor is "classically" portrayed?
Andrew Farago: A good artist is a
good artist whether it's Ditko and Kirby or Byrne and
Sienkiewicz or Quitely and Wieringo
***
But a good storyteller is a good storyteller and some of those names have got it and some don't. You may appreciate stretched out pacing -- but that doesn't make it good any more than my not liking it makes it bad. But if you agree that Caniff, Eisner, et al do it right -- how can you be so glad to see the industry going whole hog in the other direction? If Quitely's pacing were unique and this were the only stretched out comic on the market, I'd be less inclined to comment on the lunacy of it. But this thread is partly about the trend Quitely represents -- my personal beef is that on top of all his contempt and lateness his work is dull to boot.
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Dave Farabee
Byrne Robotics Member
Quit Forum
Joined: 01 September 2004
Posts: 977
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
| Are you saying Will Eisner, Alex Toth, Milton Caniff and Gil Kane all said "Quitely rules" or something? |
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No, not at all. What I was saying with that post is that when talented artists over and over cite these guys as their influences, I put some stock in what those artists are saying. More than, say, the guys in the line for Liefeld. Or your average joe in a comic shop or on a message board. It's nothing personal, just a system for giving more or less weight to someone's evaluation.
Creators would probably rank at the very top of the list of people whose word I'd give weight to in evaluating art objectively. But I'd also give more credence to those who've studied art or worked closely with artists (say, Neil Gaiman, who brought in Quitely alongside P. Craig Russell and Milo Manara on his final SANDMAN project), and those applying at least some objective standards to their evaluations (the Eisner judges would qualify, and they just handed out Quitely a "Best Artist" award for his work on We3 last year).
QUOTE:
| Their styles of storytelling are among the unqualified GREATEST. No one will dispute that. |
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People absolutely would! That's precisely my point! We've certainly all had experiences with folks who don't get Kirby -- you think there aren't folks who'd have the same trouble with Toth's minimalism ("where's the detail?") or Eisner's use of exaggeration ("too cartoony!")? That's why I'm saying I'd give pros or those who've studied art more credence in discussing this stuff.
Put simply: If Darwyn "New Frontier" Cooke tells me Toth ruled, his word carry extra weight. If Byrne says Joe Kubert is a master, I tend to believe him. Or even if a Joe Kubert school grad weighs in on a topic, whether the dude's gone pro or not, I'd listen to him more than someone with no artistic training.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4075
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 11
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Hugh, one more time, take a deep breath, step away
from the computer for a few minutes, and relax.
There are a lot of unnecessary insults flying around
right now, and I don't think anyone's going to make
strong arguments for their points at this rate.
Being Shaenon's husband, I'm probably not the
most impartial person to jump in on her behalf, but
I'll take a shot at it.
*The "Quitely's characters look gay" thing Shaenon
referred to dates back to the last time everyone
argued about the number of lines Quitely puts into
his drawings and a number of folks complaining that
Superman looked like he was coming on to them on
the first All-Star Superman cover and that Wolverine's
lips were too puckered up.
*The phrase "fan turned pro" is usually used
negatively around here, but not so much when you're
talking about guys like Geoff Johns, Kurt Busiek and
Alex Ross.
*Shaenon's quote doesn't seem to relate to yours,
so she's probably addressing more concerns than
just the ones expressed in your quote.
*Shaenon's easily the best writer I know (and she's
got a few writing awards under her belt to show it),
she's got an English degree and an 800 on the
verbal section of the SATs way back when, so don't
take the "I'm smarter than you, let me dumb this
down so you can understand it" approach with her. It
just riles up her Irish temper, pisses her off and gets
everyone off-topic.
*Shaenon wasn't even all that interested in
superhero comics until I dragged her into them, so
we're damn lucky that she posts about them (and
writes them) at all.
Hope that straightens everything out. I'm glad I finally
got to make good use of my six-week diploma from
the George W. Bush Correspondence School of
Diplomacy and Peacemaking.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6940
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| Posted: 04 October 2005 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 12
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Dave Farabee: Oy vey, don't let's get into judgements about efficiency based on two or three frickin' pages! Another debate for another time.
***
You posted the STar Trek page as an example of the man's craftsmenship and clear storytelling -- sorry if that meant "don't evaluate the efficiency of his storytelling."
Dave Farabee: Are you saying Quitely and Kordey are "hot artists"? Let me say again: they're not.
***
I'm glad to hear it-- I missed that before. Who are the "hot" artists in your store today?
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Topic Closed)
