Author |
|
Joe Mayer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 January 2005 Posts: 1397
|
Posted: 26 August 2005 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
If you are going to compare the economics of the comic buying demographic of how it used to be to now, there are a number of factors that need to be considered.
- Look at competition for the child entertainment dollar - there are a lot more things out there that kids can buy. Card games, video games, DVDs, and more are competing for the exact same market.
- The number of households with two working parents - childeren in day cares mean less time to be playing around town
- Consider crime rates and the number of childeren in day care - how often you do you see kids allowed to play far from home where they are in a position to go to a grocery store or place like that on their own that could sell comics.
- Suburban sprawl - The farthe we go, the more difficult buying becomes.
- Literacy rates
- Kids becoming interested in the opposite gender at an earlier age
- Greater variety of after school activites
- Shorter attention spans
- Greater access to the Internet
Yes comics have changed, but so has our society. I just think it takes a lot more study to say why the comics industry has declined than they are different, because everything is different.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
David Blot wrote:
As soon as some Neil Gaiman or Grand Morrison's
got some recognitions outside of Comic's book frontier, you all go
'shouting' that this is artsy fartsy english rude morrons only liked by
some NYC people little niche that's gonna kill the businness. |
|
|
Can you point me to a direct quote where I ever said that when that
happened, please? Because I can guarantee that the only time I've used
the term "artsy fartsy" was in direct quotation of another person who has
used the term, and I have never disparaged Neil Gaiman, criticised Grant
Morrison for branching outside of comics, or blamed British comic writers
for creating a niche industry. My only criticism of Morrison has been that I
don't think he understands superheroes, a point which Eric Kleefeld and I
disagree on, and that's about it.
And, again, I think you're totally missing the point because you've got a
completely different perception of the industry than as it stands in the
U.S.
Edited by John Mietus on 27 August 2005 at 3:44pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
David Blot Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 858
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
John M, the first line of my post starts with
"(....) But I think you are (maybe not you john,
personally, but the general trend on this forum) totally in contradiction "
ect...
So I dont see why you took it so personally, and I still believe that's the
general trend on this forum.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
And I still think you don't know what you're talking about.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
F. Ron Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1289
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
Mind if I join this discussion in progress? Forgive me if this point has
already been given: Isn't what's "happening" to comics virtually the same
as what's happened to all "traditional" forms of entertainment? Less
comics readers? Well there's also less viewers of network news,--
television viewers overall is down, less theatrical attendance of movies,
not as many people buying books and so on. Yet conversely all of these
mediums are thriving. How? They cater to devotees. Comics may not be
what they used to be. They may not be on a spinner rack (unless you
count the spinner racks at every Barnes and Nobles) but they are --in the
form of trade paperback-- in every bookstore. There are more comics
and comics related entertainment than at any other time. I just returned
from an afternoon at one of Los Angeles' premiere shopping malls and
you couldn't walk fifteen feet without encountering some reference,
somehow, of a DC or Marvel property. The popular culture is enjoying a
resurgence in illustrated media that it hasn't since the middle of the last
century. The fact that just a niche must have it in the form of a serialized
pamphlet in order for the medium to be judged "successful" may prove to
be too demanding. I don't think that pamphlet will every go away. Nor will
radio, television, or movie theaters. Though I do think it will be a means
and not an end. If that's not already the case.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
David Blot Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 858
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
Well I dont know you that much so, I will try no to put judgement like
that, but be sure that I'll see, in the future, if you really know what you're
talking about.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Didier Yvon Paul Fayolle Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 January 2005 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 5253
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
This is a difference of culture here.
David, you say French people consider comics books as an Art ( the 9 th one ). But you forget some few points in your arguments:
when they created the Comics books convention of Angouleme ( for our American fellows, this is the most famous and established one in France ) in the 70's, people just looked at it as a " kiddy picture fair ". But a group of comics books artists tryied hard to make it change, Bretecher, Gotlib, Mandryka, Dionnet. Only in the 80's with the visit by then French President Francois Mitterrand and with a great help from the Arts and culture minister Jack Lang, French people looked at it more seriously. But it was only until the late 80's / early 90's that comics books was recognize as an Art form, officially. All the way long, a lot of creators have had a hard time to make sure this goal was not forgotten. And hey, The CNBDI ( National Centre for Comics Books and image ... the only museum dedicated to comics book in France opened just a little bit more than a decade ago.
So, the recognization as an Art form is quite recent.
Then again, the samples of top sales you are indicating are on some big names and established characters, along with few " successful specials cases". As I mentioned in the other thread " Europe ", there are more and more new titles on the shelves ( I don't even include the direct publication of Manga stuff, supposedly 1/3 of the shelves in the shops... but can't confirm on this one ). Some may see this as a positive point, but a lot of my comics books friends consider this with care. This booming makes the life of the comics much shorter, and unlike the American way of doing comics ( to make it short: different creators on the same character with publishing titles every month ), the French way ( the same artist / or group of artists on the same and unique character/book on a limited number of hard cover issues with a frequency of one a year, more or less) is having big troubles to survive.
I have a friend who was supposed to do a 4 part 44 pages stroy arc, but the publisher decided to end the whole thing at the end of the 3 rd book ( yep, really no hope of any end of that story anytime soon ).
I have some other friends who try to propose stuff but the requierments in terms of quality and sales are really challenging.
Nowdays, publishers may have less problem to publish a book, but if it doesn't sale good, it goes axed much faster.
It is true that French comics books artists are more driven by passion for that form of expression than for money. And it is true that stuff from the underground comics have more chance to be recognized. But the health of the comics in France is just a big ballon who may explode any time.
As for the comics books in Hong Kong, well, they have had a peak period in early 90's, and now the figures are much down, but still it is healthy. Recently, they were complaining about some kind of "illegal " comics books library who were making them loosing big time money by not paying back some percentage.
Hong Kong comics is in its format much closer to the American style ( comics monthly, weekly ) but made by a studio ( like in Japan ).
And to answer to someone question asked earlier, some comics succeed to make it on the English market. But, once again it is pretty difficult for them, because as common people will say around in France... American people only read super-heroes.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
While comics as an artform may be respected as an artform outside of the
United States, here it most definitely is not except (in my experience)
among professionals in the field, the dwindling fanbase, and pretentious
art student types who only read books like LOVE AND ROCKETS or LONE
WOLF AND CUB or Vertigo/Neil Gaiman titles and have a great deal of
disdain for mainstream comics unless it's a snarky contemptuous "love"
of the kitschiness of the genre -- and even then, they have to use the
term "graphic novel" to justify their interest.
Granted, I'm using sweeping generalizations here, but the fact remains --
Joe Q. American either considers comics as a juvenile artform not worthy
of attention and one that only sweaty, dorky fanboys still read, if they
regard them as anything at all.
[edited to add] Now, we may know this to be completely untrue, but that's
the general perception.
Edited by John Mietus on 27 August 2005 at 9:24pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
David Blot Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 858
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
Yo Didier.
I think, in the same "Europe" thread I said that, like a Phoenix, comic
books in France, goes back and forth. The 80's were not a great time
when they had to cancel most of the historic publications (Pilote, Metal
Hurlant, Tintin).
Now you agree with me, the sales are huge, the media attention is bigger
than ever and you can see comic books (and big way) in any bookstores,
not even talking about Virgin & Fnac's places.
You say some people doesn't sell. I personally do know since I did two
books at Delcourt that were not great sellers (Le Chant de la Machine, 2
volumes, around 4000 each) now, the variety of what is selling is amazing
: Super Hero (we have every Marvel book here with different editions),
manga, Trondheim, XIII, Asterix, Tardi, Swarf, Persepolis, etc...
The main concern in the US, also, is that new (young) readers are not
coming in the comic books market. That, truly is worrying for the future.
But you have to admit that in Europe, books for kids sells a ton. This is
why I insist on the Titeuff success, I personnaly think it's shit, but it's for
kids and they love it, and he is the biggest icon in comic book right now
for young, and his creation his recent. And is not only : Le PEtit Spirou,
Kid Paddle and whatever.
Then, I already said that there's too many productions, that it will
probably boom, but c'mon, people are not buying multiple copies of
thing, some may stop, but most will continue, and the best artists will still
have work to do. There is no spectulator mentality (and certainly no
Wizard price guide :) ) The media wont stop being intersted in comics,
believe me, it is here to stay, it's all generations now, from kid to
grandpa.
I honestly think US is late in marketing comic book. There is not a lot of
sections of the industry where I can say that french does it better, but
here it is :)
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
F. Ron Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1289
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 9:29pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
"art student types who read books like LOVE AND ROCKETS or LONE WOLF
AND CUB and have a great deal of disdain for mainstream comics unless
it's a snarky contemptuous "love" of the kitschiness of the genre -- and
even then, they have to use the term "graphic novel" to justify their
interest."
Geez, contemptuous much?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
I'm contemptuous of anyone who has to make excuses for enjoying comic
books, yes. And that's not the full quote.
[edited to add] And for the record, F. Ron, I read those titles I mentioned
and get just as much enjoyment from them as I do from, say, the latest
issue of Green Lantern.
Edited by John Mietus on 27 August 2005 at 9:36pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
David Blot Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 858
|
Posted: 27 August 2005 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
"Joe Q. American either considers comics as a juvenile artform not worthy
of attention and one that only sweaty, dorky fanboys still read, if they
regard them as anything at all. "
-------
And if it was not the Americans who have a problem, but the dorky fan
boys ?
And you say juvenile ? Well, maybe if they read more Love & Rockets they
wont see it as juvenile, and you will be happy to be able to read super
hero for a long time. Me too.
Joe Q ? Quesada ? :)
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
|
|