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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 1
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Holy crap. Byrne's ACTION was 75 cents. That doesn't seem right. God that was a lifetime ago.
There's no doubt in the world of comics being an art form, but why do the creators approach it that way when that's not the way it was ever approached? Like film noir, comics have only been viewed as Art in retrospect. Guys like Steranko and Ditko are aggressive about the power of the medium, and they should be, but neither of those guys would say it's on a par with Picasso. And how awful is the art in general these days? What the hell happened to all the great comic artists who used to work regularly?
And any discussion of the Industry has to revolve around superhero comics, doesn't it? First? When you get those healthy the whole Industry benefits, including stuff like WALKING DEAD and HUMAN TARGET and DOOM PATROL and QUEEN AND COUNTRY. Anyone think TOMB OF DRACULA, which in the 70s was plagued with frequent cancellation threats, lasts 70+ issues in this current climate? TOMB wouldn't last FIVE issues in this day and age, and it's one of the great runs on any comic EVER.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 8:39am | IP Logged | 2
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"But you just forget that we DO have Friends and Lost and all the tv reality
all day long in France. (and the web, and cable tv, and video games and
mariah carey)."
I didn't forget that at all. Because there are great differences
between French and American culture there still is a market for
home-grown French entertainment, including comics.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 3
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I don't subscribe to cable. All the good stuff on cable ends up on DVD anyways.
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Ed Love
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2712
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 4
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in 1987 byrne's action comics was 75 cents.
around the late 80's into the early nineties, the price of paper rose
drastically, faster than general inflation. then factor that comics run
fewer ads and have dramatically less distribution than that time you
get even higher price rates. notice when a comic is in danger of
cancellation, the publisher does what seems counter-intuitive to the
fan by raising the price, not lowering it.
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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9704
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 9:26am | IP Logged | 5
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David, what I don't think you understand is that, in the U.S., comic art is
not respected as it is in other parts of the world. Even now, with all these
successful super hero movies being made, comic books themselves are
perceived by non-comic readers as kiddie fare (and those people are
shocked -- and often horrified -- when shown that very little comics
work is actually written with children in mind).It is not considered an
artform by the general populace over here.
Among the people on this forum? Of course. We wouldn't be here
otherwise. The overall populace -- what JB calls "civilians" and what my
geek friends refer to as "the straights" or "the mundanes?" Not in the
slightest.
So you're coming at this from an entirely different cultural perspective.
Here in the U.S., we're seeing a downward spiral in overall sales volume, a
terrible distribution system, and a decreasing niche readership base.
Despite Michael Hatton's rather naive belief that just because there is a
wide variety of titles and genres being published in the independent
market, the dwindling unber of unit sales should be no cause for alarm,
the industry is shrinking with no signs of slowing down.
I would like to believe in Ethan's optimism -- that the quality of books
being published will keep the industry afloat indefinitely. However,
working in the printing industry (print is dying overall, folks -- it won't go
away in our lifetimes, but it sure as hell isn't a healthy industry right now.
It's not just comics I'm talking about) and having worked in the retail
aspect of the comics industry, I just don't see the industry digging itself
out of the hole.
The bottom line is unit sales. And unit sales continue to decrease.
It reminds me of the Simpsons episode that parodied "It's A Mad, Mad,
Mad, Mad World", where at the end the characters were digging a hole to
look for buried treasure, and they dig themselves a hole so deep, one of
the characters says, "How are we going to get out of this hole," and Chief
Wiggum replies, "Dig up, stupid."
It's like that.
Edited by John Mietus on 26 August 2005 at 9:27am
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Francesco Vanagolli
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 3130
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 6
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David, what I don't think you understand is that, in the U.S., comic art is
not respected as it is in other parts of the world. Even now, with all these
successful super hero movies being made, comic books themselves are
perceived by non-comic readers as kiddie fare (and those people are
shocked -- and often horrified -- when shown that very little comics
work is actually written with children in mind).It is not considered an
artform by the general populace over here.
Agreed. And sometimes I envy the French people because in their country comics are considered a great form of literature. Here in Italy we have a better situation than in the US, but I haven't problem in saying that France gives us big lessons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't in the US writers or intellectuals who read comics? Here in the mid '60s Oreste Del Buono and Umberto Eco began to make understand people that comics are literature, and they aren't only for kids. In that period, in Universities you could to see 20/25 years old with a copy of Spider-Man or the Peanuts in his hand. Sadly, this "new wave" ended in the late '80s/early '90s and now comics are often badly considered again.
Edited to add.
Edited by Francesco Vanagolli on 26 August 2005 at 10:01am
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Michael Hatton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 525
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 7
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I think Mike Tishman hit the nail on the head.
I know I sound Naive but bear with me for a moment. Lets us compare TV's trends to Comics situation right now.
When I was a kid all TV was free and each show had high ratings
compared to now. But I also had only 4 channels. If you
missed a show too bad.
Now I pay $50 a month but I have hundreds of channels. Each show
gets smaller ratings than their earlier equivalent. If you missed
a show you can buy the whole season on DVD sometimes.
When I told my kids how it was when I was a kid they thought it was
terrible. There is no way they would go back to 4 channels.
How is this different from comics.
Then: Comics were cheaper, less titles, each comic sold more you missed an issue too bad.
Now: Comics cost more, more titles, less sold per title, trade paperback collections.
My kids would not want to go back either. My seven year old likes
Disney and Teen Titans Go. She has multiple forms she can get
them and all of the old comics from the past are available. My
oldest like superheroes. Neither would go back to when I was a
kid. My daughter has a huge number of Marvel Essentials.
When I was a kid I would have had to pay quite a bit to read some of
those stories since they were no longer in print.
Are we worried that TV is going to go away?
Edited by Michael Hatton on 26 August 2005 at 10:46am
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David Blot
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 858
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 10:48am | IP Logged | 8
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Chad : "Like film noir, comics have only been viewed as Art in retrospect.
Guys like Steranko and Ditko are aggressive about the power of the
medium, and they should be, but neither of those guys would say it's on a
par with Picasso."
------
I dont think it's for Steranko or Ditko to say they are on a par with
Picasso. It's for us (and our children) to say it. I'm not sure either that
Picasso was thinking he was on par with Michealangelo - in fact he is not
but it is sublime Art (and art) too.
I truly believe Jack Kirby among all of comic books artists (and maybe
Schulz & Hergé) will be recgonise as the major artists of the XXst century
in years to come on par with other artists in different medias.
Now, we've got the times we deserve, but I kinda like it.
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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9704
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 9
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Michael Hatton wrote:
| Are we worried that TV is going to go away? |
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Are overall unit sales down? And steadily decreasing? No.
[edited to add] People still watch t.v., just fewer watch the main broadcast
networks.
Fewer people read comics. The number is shrinking, not growing.
Two different things.
Edited by John Mietus on 26 August 2005 at 10:52am
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David Blot
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 858
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 10
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John M : "David, what I don't think you understand is that, in the U.S.,
comic art is not respected as it is in other parts of the world. Even now,
with all these successful super hero movies being made, comic books
themselves are perceived by non-comic readers as kiddie fare "
------
Yo John. I do know that. But I think you are (maybe not you john,
personally, but the general trend on this forum) totally in contradiction
whith yourself about this subject.
As soon as some Neil Gaiman or Grand Morrison's got some recognitions
outside of Comic's book frontier, you all go 'shouting' that this is artsy
fartsy english rude morrons only liked by some NYC people little niche
that's gonna kill the businness.
But how did you think comic books got the media attention and became
an Art by itself in France ? Exactly the same way, through medias.
For example I do think french illustrator Enki Bilal is a pompous artsy
fartsy guy, but he definetely help comic books to be seen as art. People
like Moebius, Jacques Tardi or the late italian great Hugo Pratt really
pushed the comic book art form in the media and the grown up people.
Now this doesnt change the fact that the best seller Titteuff (millions of
copie each issue) is for children, but that also means that any B&W Tardi
stuff is 500 000 no less.
As far as movie goes, as long as it is things like 'Sin City', 'Ghost World',
'Hellboy', 'American Splendor', you cannot deny that he gives comic book
a nice push in term of artistic recognition by adults.
Now when it's horrible shit like Daredevil, well, that can kill any art on
earth so...
Again, sorry to say the Key is trusting the Art. And Fuck the business :)
Again :)
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Michael Hatton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 525
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 11
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"Are overall unit sales down? And steadily decreasing? No.
"
I would not be too sure about that statement. I was reading a lot
of articles last year about how men 18-36 were not watching much TV at
all, cable or broadcast. They were trying to figure out what to
do about it.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36132
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| Posted: 26 August 2005 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 12
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That's not surprising at all. That demographic is the hardest to
reach. Always has been. Now if cable and broadcast were
losing women and kids, it'd be a different story.
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