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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12801
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Posted: 01 January 2025 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | 1
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Jim Shooter's notable early Marvel work, in my opinion, was notable because of the art of George Perez and John Byrne, and where Mr. Shooter was only plotting the scripting of Dave Michelinie. The idea of the Korvac Saga, whatever its other merits in terms of the execution, was a dry run for Secret Wars.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6556
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Posted: 02 January 2025 at 12:12am | IP Logged | 2
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As I get more age and experience, it is interesting to see how much easier it is for me to recognize writers who (in my opinion) "get it". I started reading with the assumption that everyone was equally invested in the overall illusion of keeping the characters "real". I have sense grown "allergic" to writers who seem to elevate the singer over the song or who don't get what's great about the characters they work on.
It is sad, in my opinion, how far down that scale Jim Shooter was as a writer. His early success could have been a strong foundation for a truly amazing writing career.
Edited by Mark Haslett on 02 January 2025 at 12:15am
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Richard Stevens Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1960
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Posted: 02 January 2025 at 1:11am | IP Logged | 3
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Well, now I want to see a "lost" Romita-era Spider-Man comic where Wolverine is the animal-themed villain. Would settle for a misunderstood anti-hero.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2398
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Posted: 02 January 2025 at 3:16am | IP Logged | 4
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Jim Shooter's a good writer. Just because you don't like the guy in one or more areas doesn't mean you have to artificially dislike him in ALL the areas!
I just re-read his DAREDEVIL run in the latest Epic Collection. After some horrible issues by Marv Wolfman, Shooter's run was like eating steak after a bad hot dog. His LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES (all THREE stints!) was very good, his AVENGERS Count Nefaria 3-parter with JB was excellent, his issues with Perez were great, other random DC and Marvel comics were good. It's been a while, but I recall the actual writing of SECRET WARS II was good and it might be remembered quite differently if it had Neal Adams, George Perez, or John Byrne drawing it.
He's not on my top ten writers list, but he's far from the bottom.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 02 January 2025 at 3:17am
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Steven Myers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5711
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Posted: 02 January 2025 at 6:49pm | IP Logged | 5
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The idea of the Korvac Saga, whatever its other merits in terms of the execution, was a dry run for Secret Wars. ------------ Yep. He just does the same story over and over. With Korvac, Molecule Man, Beyonder, or whatever. Even Super-Nefaria is just the idea of a villain no one can beat. No interesting twists or anything or the characterization in Dr. Doom that Byrne (and others) wrote. I understand some people like his writing, but I'm not one of those people.
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4652
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Posted: 02 January 2025 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 6
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Mark McCay wrote:
In some ways, I agree with the sentiment, in that the singers became more important than the song. But I would also always err on giving credit where credit is due. |
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The solution to the singers becoming more important than the song isn't to remove credits, it's to have a competent editor who is willing/able to prevent that from happening.
It's interesting that Shooter at times floated the idea of eliminating credits, as well as the idea that the costumes/powers were what mattered, rather than the guys wearing those costumes. Both of those strike me as very "DC" ideas. Shooter always said that he viewed Marvel's approach as inherently superior, so it's odd he'd be pushing ideas that seem antithetical to the Marvel approach.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 02 January 2025 at 7:43pm
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4652
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Posted: 02 January 2025 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 7
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Ron Bailey wrote:
In addition to agreeing with all the other comments made here about Secret Wars, I remember being annoyed by how rushed/unfinished the issues seemed to be, and I was a huge fan of Mike Zeck's work from Master of Kung Fu.. |
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I remember reading an interview with Zeck in which he said Shooter made him do a lot of redrawing on Secret Wars, because his layouts "weren't boring enough."
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Bob Harvey Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 November 2014 Location: United States Posts: 229
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Posted: 03 January 2025 at 1:02am | IP Logged | 8
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Shooter was one of the first fan favorite writers, wasn't he? That's the impression one gets from the fan press of the late 60s/early 70s.
Outside of Secret Wars, I really only know him as a writer on Star Brand, which I liked. Secret Wars is obviously a contrived and dopey story, but I was reading it to my (8 year old) son recently and found the (admittedly melodramatic) dialogue to be pretty strongand nicely rhythmic when read aloud. I'd certainly take him over 95% of current mainstream comic writers, though maybe that's not saying much.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2398
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Posted: 03 January 2025 at 4:08am | IP Logged | 9
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I remember reading an interview with Zeck in which he said Shooter made him do a lot of redrawing on Secret Wars, because his layouts "weren't boring enough."___________
Though I defended his writing, I will say that the basic "house art style" (with of course exceptions or people trying to be exceptions) of all the various companies he started or helped start (Valiant, Defiant, Broadway, even the New Universe) was/were indeed boring! The man likes boring! And, yes, that is very weird for a guy raised on 60's Marvel.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6556
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Posted: 03 January 2025 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 10
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It does seem Marvel today could use 1980’s Jim Shooter. If he’s available.
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Doug Centers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 February 2014 Location: United States Posts: 5655
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Posted: 03 January 2025 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 11
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If Shooter's writing was aimed at 10-13yo's he hit the target with me.Besides that Avengers run, he wrote my favorite What if?... story (#3) and also a favorite Superboy "Soljer's Private War".
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