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Steven Brake
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Posted: 30 December 2024 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

James Woodcock wrote: I felt it was weak, characterisations were
poor...

SB replied: Having spent 2024 re-reading every issue of Secret Wars on the fortieth anniversary of its original publication (yes, I know I need help!), I was struck by how well Shooter depicted such a range of characters, and their different interactions with each other.

He seemed to really like Spider-Man in Secret Wars, showing him pretty much effortlessly trouncing the X-Men, easily knocking out Piledriver, and running rings around Titania. Outside of Secret Wars, did he ever write Spider-Man again?

I though his Doctor Doom was pretty decent too - intelligent, proud, and ambitious. 
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 30 December 2024 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"Keep in mind, SECRET WARS began as a toy promotion. At the start nobody expected it to be a hit. It was only when Shooter forced all the other titles to tie in to SW that we saw its sales climb."

--

I hadn't thought if it that way before. There was already CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS which also featured all of the MU characters together - but it was a completely standalone story and was easily ignored, which I suppose most readers did. 

--

"And that was at the expense of the other titles. Fans who were operating on limited budgets flocked to the book that had virtually all the characters in it. The numbers SW accrued were basically subtracted from the other books."

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I recall handling the original SW well enough, but by the time SWII came around, I tried to buy all of the tie-ins for the first couple of months, but I had to give up because there was no way I could afford them all. And since continuing to read SWII meant having to read an incomplete story, I gave up on it altogether. Then I became more and more annoyed that this Jheri-curled clone of Captain America* kept popping up in the books that I was trying to read.

I know that kids weren't meant to know about how the sausage was made, but it became pretty damn clear to me even then that there was something fishy about the guy with Editor-In-Chief credits (and the voice of the Marvel Bullpen Bulletins) getting the writing gig for these two major series. I also questioned the point of an Editor credit going to someone else - who was going to get away with telling Shooter "No"?


* Roger Stern might have been the only writer to reference this fact!

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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 30 December 2024 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 ron bailey wrote:
I am surprised it didn't cause a revolt amongst the editorial and creative contingent.
According to Doug Moench, Shooter was pushing a plan to start replacing the alter egos of characters, and the editors were all afraid to confront him.  When Moench left Marvel he went public with this plan, and there was enough of a backlash from fans that it was abandoned.  But it’s notable that in the next few years, Tony Stark, Donald Blake, and Steve Rogers were all temporarily replaced in their roles.  Moench talks about it here.
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ron bailey
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Posted: 30 December 2024 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Hmmm, from that perspective, it does make it sound like it was some sort of ulterior legal motive they were trying to navigate disguised as an editorial directive. 
Oh well, it was the go-go greed '80's after all!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 December 2024 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Wow, that’s a terrible transcription!
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 30 December 2024 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

What’s the endgame to changing the identities of the heroes? What’s the
benefit? I don’t understand why this was such a priority with him.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 December 2024 at 8:47pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

A fellow pro (who shall remain anonymous) suggested that Shooter killed all the characters in SECRET WARS, and then brought them back to life so in his own mind he could say he created them. Something similar at work in replacing them?

I’m not a psychologist, so I don’t know.

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Marc Foxx
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Posted: 30 December 2024 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Brian Miller - I suppose, the endgame would be creator credit? I recall reading one of the "Bullpen Bulletins" back in the day, around the time that the original "Karate Kid" movie came out, Shooter had considered (or been advised to consider)
suing the producers, since he had created the Karate Kid character when he was writing "Legion of Superheroes", but chose not to do it, because it's not what Peter Parker would have done...
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 December 2024 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I suppose, the endgame would be creator credit?

•••

From time to time Shooter had expressed the opinion that there shouldn’t even be credits. That it should be the characters alone that sold the books.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 31 December 2024 at 1:03pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Removing all credits would have destroyed one of Stan Lee's great legacies. Imagine, too, having done that as editor-in-chief a mere six years after Stan held the post. 
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Mark McKay
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Posted: 31 December 2024 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

From time to time Shooter had expressed the opinion that there shouldn’t even be credits. That it should be the characters alone that sold the books.

•••

In some ways, I agree with the sentiment, in that the singers became more important than the song. But I would also always err on giving credit where credit is due.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 31 December 2024 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

There wasn’t much in the way of credits when I started reading American comics in the Fifties. Altho some names appeared—notably Gardner Fox and “Bob Kane”, I followed artists by their styles, and sometimes it would be years before I learned their names.
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