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Dave Kopperman
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Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21 June 2024 at 8:30pm | IP Logged | 1
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Yeah, I've been following this thread since its inception and I can't for the life of me figure out what the exact quotes are, where they're from, and why they're thought to say what they say re: authorship. Not that I need to, mind you, but if something specific has been proven with mic-dropping confidence, I missed it.
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21 June 2024 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | 2
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Dave, can you respond more specifically? I’m not sure what mic-drop you
are looking for, but all I’m trying to establish is that some of Shakespeare’s
contemporaries suggested in print that “Shakespeare” is a pen name.
What is missing in your opinion from the case I laid out that Joseph Hall
says Shakespeare is a pen name in his 1597 Satyre?
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Steven Brake
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Joined: 01 January 2016
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| Posted: 21 June 2024 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | 3
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Mark Haslett wrote: Naturally, if there was any reference anywhere on the record that established the Author came from Stratford, the conversation would end.
SB replied: In 1603, William Shakespeare is named alongside Heminges and Condell in the royal patent confirming the creation of The King's Men.
In 1616, William Shakespeare (or Shakespere, or Shakespear - as is conventional for the time, the surname is spelt in a variety of ways) dies in Stratford-Upon-Avon, naming Heminges and Condell in his will.
In 1623, the First Folio is published. In it, Heminges and Condell named Shakespeare as the author of the plays contained within. Shakespeare is also described as being the "Sweet Swan of Avon" by Jonson in his commendatory poem.
That is as straight a line of evidence as can reasonably be expected, and can only be denied by the most ridiculous and illogical of arguments.
Mark Haslett wrote: Shakespeare scholars have hunted in vain for hundreds of years for this kind of evidence.
SB replied: On the contrary, Alternative Authorship theorists have attempted to deny Shakespeare's authorship for centuries, with notable lack of success.
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Dave Kopperman
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Posts: 3562
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| Posted: 21 June 2024 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | 4
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Never mind - was a mistake to chime in. As you all were.
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 21 June 2024 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | 5
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Dave: Never mind - was a mistake to chime in. As you all were.
**
Ok. I don’t know if I seemed confrontational, but I absolutely did not mean
to. I sincerely wonder if you saw a logic problem or could say to what
degree it was convincing to you.
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 21 June 2024 at 10:22pm | IP Logged | 6
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Again, SB -- Please provide any textual analysis of Hall's work to show how
all the specific qualities that Hall provides to identify "Labeo" can be
properly placed upon Marston.
Your failure to address this at all remains telling.
Edited by Mark Haslett on 21 June 2024 at 10:23pm
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 21 June 2024 at 10:34pm | IP Logged | 7
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SB: [Shakespeares theater business friends have their names on letters in the folio]… That is as straight a line of evidence as can reasonably be
expected, and can only be denied by the most ridiculous and illogical of
arguments.
**
How does any part of that evidence prove that “Shakespeare” was not the
pen name of an author who “shifted the blame onto another’s name” as
Joseph Hall said?
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Steven Brake
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Joined: 01 January 2016
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| Posted: 22 June 2024 at 6:29am | IP Logged | 8
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Mark Haslett wrote: How does any part of that evidence prove that “Shakespeare” was not the pen name of an author who “shifted the blame onto another’s name” as Joseph Hall said?
SB wrote: What evidence have you provided with Joseph Hall directly stating that Shakespeare was a pen name?
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 22 June 2024 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 9
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You miss my point.
Let’s try again.
Hypothetically, what in your “straight line of evidence” rules out the
possibility of “Shakespeare” being a pen name?
You know, as in the whole point of this thread?
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 22 June 2024 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 10
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Again, you’ve declared that Hall was talking about Marston or someone else
when he said “Labeo.”
But Hall speaks directly about this hidden poet’s great power and high
status and his ability to avoid Hall’s criticism and punish him if he wants.
Then he identifies 7 specific qualities of Labeo’s work with which his
readers can decode Labeo’s identity:
1. Heroic poesy
2. Big But Ohs
3. Hyphenated epithets
4. The poet implores Phoebus/Apollo to guide his work
5. The poet steals “whole pages” from Petrarch
6. The poems are sexual in nature
7. The poems are well known
Marston had not yet published anything. He did have a big Shakespeare
lampoon in the works, though— a “heroic poesy”. But with only a couple
“But ohs” (imitating Shakespeare. He does not implore Phoebus for
guidance. He does not steal whole pages of Petrarch. It is kind of sexual,
again imitating Shakespeare, but (since it wasn’t published) there is no way
Hall’s readers could ever understand Labeo to be Maeston.
However, every point fits Shakespeare perfectly.
And only Shakespeare fits every point.
And, to cap it off, Marston confirms that Labeo is Shakespeare by quoting
Shakespeare’s Venus and Adonis directly and connecting the quote to the
name Labeo.
It’s inescapable. Hall went on the record, at length, to call William
Shakespeare a pen name. So did Marston.
I know. It’s devastating. But it’s true.
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Steven Brake
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| Posted: 22 June 2024 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 11
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Mark Haslett write: Hypothetically, what in your “straight line of evidence” rules out the possibility of “Shakespeare” being a pen name?
SB replied: How do you prove a negative? If you think Shakespeare is a pseudonym, the onus is on you to prove it.
Mark Haslett wrote: Hall went on the record, at length, to call William Shakespeare a pen name. So did Marston.
SB replied: You haven't provided a single quote from either men supporting this.
In his satires, Hall describes the unnamed poet as "a new laureat". Venus and Adonis has been published in 1593, about four years before. Marston's Metamorphosis, on the other hand, was only just circulating and would shortly be published.
Edited by Steven Brake on 22 June 2024 at 11:20am
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Trevor Smith
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Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 22 June 2024 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 12
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"Yeah, I've been following this thread since its inception
and I can't for the life of me figure out what the exact
quotes are"
**
Steven Brake's posts seem designed to win arguments through
sheer reader fatigue, I must say.
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