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Michael Penn
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Posted: 25 July 2023 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

A decent reply, yes, thank you... even if not as embittered as one could have hoped for. :)
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 25 July 2023 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: 

In what universe does naming the publisher relate to our discussion about who the editor is? 

SB replied: Blount and Jaggard published the Folio. As part of this publication, they would have employed other staff, including editors. They may have contacted Ben Jonson - who Blount would also publish - asking him to contribute the commendatory verse. Or perhaps Heminges or Condell suggested him. Or perhaps Jonson learned of the proposed publication, and wished to contribute something to it. This also applies to other contributors to the Folio.

Mark Haslett wrote: Your further claim that publishers provide editing services is not backed up by any evidence. 

SB replied: Publishers usually have in-house editors, or work with editors when preparing work for publication. This is standard practice.

Mark Haslett wrote: The editor of the Ben Jonson folio was Ben Johnson, because it was necessary to have an editor. The Shakespeare folio, which is far more complicated, also required an editor. Mountains of evidence suggests the identity of this editor is Ben Jonson, which is not a controversial claim although it is not universally accepted. 

SB replied: "Not universally"? "Hardly" would be more accurate.

If Jonson was the editor, why did he not simply say so? What was the point of the subterfuge? Why, when criticising the quality of Shakespeare's writing, did he never also add that he hadn't even been the author at all? Why did he keep up the pretense?

Mark Haslett wrote: This is supposed to account for the volumes of Ben Jonson parallels in their letters and the references to Pliny and Horace? The depths of respect you show my posts could almost dampen a kleenex.

SB replied: ? I'm not sure how to respond to this.

Mark Haslett wrote: Again-- you make unsupported claims which contradict the facts in evidence. The will was rewritten and rewritten up to Shaksper's death, but the gifts to the share-holders were not incorporated into a rewrite, but added as interlineations. 

SB wrote: And the association with Shakespeare that went back to about 1590? The naming of William Shakespeare - with his name spelled precisely that way, although, given the fluidity of spelling in the period, it's a moot point -  alongside John Heminges and Henry Condell in the royal patent confirming the creation of The King's Men?

Mark Haslett wrote: How kind of you to inform me of what Heminges and Condell were actually doing in those 7 years. I suppose you have some evidence to back up this claim?

SB replied: Sigh. 

It is my belief that after Shakespeare's death, Heminges and Condell search for manuscripts of his plays with the intent of publishing them in a collection to commemorate his memory - the memory of the man they had known for decades. After about seven years, and having found as many manuscripts as they could, they approached Blount and Jagger and commissioned them to produce the First Folio.

No, I don't have proof of this.

No-one does. 

But it's the overwhelmingly received opinion.

And seems far more credible to me than believing that the plays weren't written by Will of Stratford but someone else - most usually believed to be Edward De Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford - and that Heminges and Condell either knew the truth but maintained the fiction, or that they honestly believed Will to have been the author, or weren't involved in the creation of the Folio at all but were simply name-dropped in it by Jonson, the true editor, who kept his own role hidden for obscure reasons.

Mark Haslett wrote: I am not embittered by the authorship question. This aside from you is another ad hominem attack. 

Earlier, from Mark Haslett: Talking with you is like talking to a three-year-old. At this point, I have to believe you’re doing it on purpose.

Mark Haslett wrote: You do nothing but assault the integrity of Authorship questioners and ignore evidence.

SB wrote: When have I done the former, and what has been provided in terms of the latter?


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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 25 July 2023 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Ha!
Can I turn the tables and ask you what key points hold you to the Stratford side?
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 25 July 2023 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

SB replied: Publishers usually have in-house editors, or work with editors when preparing work for publication. This is standard practice.

**

Your evidence in this thread has been presented, without exception as far as I can tell, without actual evidence, sources or examples to back it up.

When sources were asked for, you refused. When evidence is presented, you bat it aside with more inventions.

Bored now.
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 25 July 2023 at 10:08pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: Your evidence in this thread has been presented, without exception as far as I can tell, without actual evidence, sources or examples to back it up.

SB replied: The above was in response to my earlier statement that "Publishers usually have in-house editors, or work with editors when preparing work for publication. This is standard practice". Which is perfectly true. Publishers employ a range of staff, including editors. 

Mark Haslett also wrote:  When evidence is presented, you bat it aside with more inventions.

SB replied: There hasn't been any evidence presented that proves, or even supports, the argument that Jonson was the editor of the Folio, or that Oxford (or someone other than William Shakespeare) was the true author. If there were, I'd be interested to read it. 




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Michael Penn
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Posted: 25 July 2023 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply


 QUOTE:
Can I turn the tables and ask you what key points hold you to the Stratford side?

Not in order of importance (and I don't know that I have an order)...

I was educated by some prominent Shakespeare scholars (yup, at Columbia U.).

The long tradition.

The name: I'm unconvinced Shakespeare is a pseudonym, and despite all the varieties of spellings and pronunciations, there it is, the name. And I'm not convinced Shaksper was a front deliberately for another author or that Shaksper took unchallenged opportunity to claim authorship against another who didn't care to or was unable to publicly be known as the author.

Stratford and Avon are right there, at the beginning, never seems to be in doubt, connected to the author, and Shaksper's birthplace, so...

Shaksper's being an actor and shareholder in the companies with rights to perform the plays.

Finally, in perfect honesty, given the mystery of Shaksper's background and the wealth of learning in the plays (yes, even when imperfect, incomplete, or flat-out erroneous), the man would have to be a stunning genius to pull it off. But I don't especially have a problem considering the author of these plays a genius of the first degree compared to the literature of any known civilization, anywhere, any time.

This is "a" case for Shaksper as Shakespeare, maybe not the best or the only one -- and maybe not ultimately convincing or correct!





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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 26 July 2023 at 12:43am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Stephen, you claim publishers employed nameless craftsmen who were in the habit of taking 900 page manuscripts and providing exacting and artful editing services without credit. You claim that Ben Jonson and the Earls financing the folio left the thousands of vital decisions involved in the presentation of the folio to these unnamed underlings without explanation and, further, you claim this was “standard practice.” Your evidence? Your personal reassurance that your claim is "perfectly true."

Not to laugh in your face, but WTF?
You are not a serious person.

The evidence I presented on the idea that Jonson was the editor has convinced a number of Stratfordian scholars that this is the case. This evidence has done so for over a hundred years, since 19th century Shakespearean scholar Edmond Malone first noted much of it.

Your claim of evidence that does not even “support” the idea that Jonson was editor of the Shakespeare folio includes:

1) Ben Jonson’s contributions to the folio coming a year after writing the sponsors of the folio, offering his services on the heels of completing his own, very similar, Ben Jonson first folio – a book he most definitely edited.

2) The Heminges and Condell letters have been noted by Stratfordian scholars to contain over 12 pages of parallels from Ben Jonson's writings, as well as references to Pliny and Horace (the primary influence on Ben Jonson, the “English Horace”). The two share-holders did not have the education that writers like Jonson needed to make easy Pliny/Horace references.

3) Contributions from others to the folio all come from men who have known connections to Jonson, but no known connections to Heminges and Condell.

None of this even “supports” the idea that Jonson might have been the actual editor? None of it. But if I could provide some evidence that DID support this idea, you would be interested to look at it?

You are not a serious person.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 26 July 2023 at 12:48am
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 26 July 2023 at 12:59am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Thank you, Michael!

These are the only interesting points that keep me from feeling the case is 100% settled.

But, especially considering recent scholarship, it is really 99.9% settled in my opinion. Stratford Will had no opportunity for the necessary education and, when you look at the timeline, he had no opportunity or motive to do the scholarship required to take some flying leap at writing Venus & Adonis when his family was basically starving back in Stratford without him.

Add in the multiple multiple references of the time that state clearly that Shakespeare is a hidden-poet, and it just gets very very difficult to account for how Shaksper could be the author and yet all the evidence would stand as it is. Too many questions. Too many dogs that didn't bark. His "genius" cannot begin to account for all the discrepancies.



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Scott Gray
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Posted: 26 July 2023 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

On the other hand, Jonathan Morris puts it this way:


Did Shakey write Shakey’s plays?


Yes of course he bloody did.

But some people don’t think Shakey wrote his plays. They’re not convinced he even existed. They think the plays were written by someone better-educated, someone from the ruling classes, someone who decided to hide their identity behind a pseudonym. If you ever meet one of these people, give them a slap, because they’re not merely wrong – they’re snobs as well.

Of course it’s unlikely that the son of a glove-maker from Stratford would be the greatest writer of all time. It’s unlikely that an Austrian patents clerk would come up with the theory of relativity but somehow he managed it. Or his wife did. The thing is, no matter how unlikely it may be that Shakey wrote all those plays, it’s still a hell of a lot more likely than any of the alternatives.

Shakey was a real person. There’s as much evidence of his existence as there is of anyone else around at the time – more so, in fact, because we’ve spent so long looking for it. We have everything from the record of his baptism to his marriage certificate to his will to the record of his burial, his signature appears on a court deposition and he’s named in a summons for threatening behaviour, he’s listed on tax records as ‘in arrears’, he’s in the cast of Ben Jonson’s Every Man In His Humour and Sejanus, he turns up on a contemporary list of ‘my top twenty-seven favourite poets, in order’ – at number thirteen - and he’s the victim of character-assassination in Robert Greene’s Groatsworth Of Wit. We have records of him receiving payments as a member of the Lord Chamberlain’s Men. He’s a beneficiary in the will of one of his fellow actors, he’s named on the deeds for the Globe, a house in Blackfriars and New Place and we have his application for a coat of arms. We have records of the births and deaths of his parents, siblings, wife and children. He’s the subject of tributes shortly after his death and there are accounts of tourists visiting his monument at Straftord-Upon-Avon from 1630 onwards. If that weren’t enough, there are all the poems and plays bearing his name and, in the case of the Folio, a large picture of him on the front.

There wouldn’t be all this evidence if ‘Shakespeare’ was a pseudonym.

But assuming that an actor called Shakespeare did exist – is that enough to prove he wrote the plays? Well, it seemed enough at the time. If it was a scam, it’s a scam that took in – or required the collusion of – his fellow author Ben Jonson and his fellow actors John Heminges and Henry Condell.

That’s the problem with the conspiracy theories. Why would someone spend so much time and effort writing the plays and poems only to allow a lowly Stratford actor to take all the credit?
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 26 July 2023 at 1:03pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: Stephen, you claim publishers employed nameless craftsmen who were in the habit of taking 900 page manuscripts and providing exacting and artful editing services without credit.

SB replied: I don't. I've pointed out that publishers employ a range of staff when producing works for publication, and can add that both Blount and Jaggard received credit for the Folio's publication.

Mark Haslett wrote: You claim that Ben Jonson and the Earls financing the folio...

SB replied: What evidence is there of this?

Mark Haslett: The evidence I presented on the idea that Jonson was the editor has convinced a number of Stratfordian scholars that this is the case. 

SB replied: It may have convinced some, but not most. The general consensus is that Shakespeare wrote the plays, and, after his death, Heminges and Condell collected as many as they could, finally arranging for them to be published in the First Folio.

Mark Haslett wrote: Ben Jonson’s contributions to the folio coming a year after writing the sponsors of the folio, offering his services on the heels of completing his own, very similar, Ben Jonson first folio – a book he most definitely edited.

SB replied: Jonson was proud of his work, and expected it to be appreciated. Why would he be so clandestine about being the true prime mover behind the creation of the Folio? 

Scott Gray wrote: That’s the problem with the conspiracy theories. Why would someone spend so much time and effort writing the plays and poems only to allow a lowly Stratford actor to take all the credit?

SB replied: Well, quite. The Alternative Authorship theory seems to be that someone else - again, let's say De Vere - wrote plays under the pseudonym of Shakespeare that were mistakenly taken to be the work of Will from Stratford. De Vere makes no attempt to correct this misunderstanding, take revenge against Will, or even have him bumped off. 

The plays are collected for publication in the First Folio by Ben Jonson, although he hides the role he's played and lets Heminges and Condell take the credit.

Is Jonson meant to have been party to the "truth" behind the plays, and that De Vere, rather than Will, was their author? Or are these two plots independent of one another, but oddly converging? :)

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 26 July 2023 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply


 QUOTE:
Why would someone spend so much time and effort writing the plays and poems only to allow a lowly Stratford actor to take all the credit?

"Now also of such among the Nobilitie or gentrie as be very well seene in many laudable sciences, and especially in making of Poesie, it is so come to passe that they haue no courage to write & if they haue, yet are they loath to be a knowen of their skill. So as I know very many notable Gentlemen in the Court that haue written commendably, and suppressed it agayne, or els suffred it to be publisht without their owne names to it: as if it were a discredit for a Gentleman, to seeme learned, and to shew himselfe amorous of any good Art."
-- The Arte of English Poesie (1589)


To take the question further, how much credit did Shaksper actually take? Even utterly stratfordian Stanley Wells conceded that "despite the mass of evidence that the works were written by a man named William Shakespeare, there is none that explicitly and incontrovertibly identifies him with Stratford-upon-Avon" ... "in his lifetime." (Shakespeare: Beyond Doubt, p. 81)

If Shaksper was the Shakespeare credited as the author in the published quartos, that means Shaksper had earned a fee as the named playwright from the acting company, an amount that was not inconsiderable. Henslowe would pay around £5 for a play, which was about a year’s income to an average craftsman or shopkeeper at that time. Antistratfordians argue that it would've benefited Shaksper to take undue credit as the author in that respect, collect the fees, and then ever afterwards simply ignore the fate of the plays... which is what happened. There's no evidence, yes, in his lifetime, that Shaksper, even if he was Shakespeare, cared the least about his life's work.
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Scott Gray
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Posted: 26 July 2023 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Occam's Razor works just as well with history as it does with science. The number of mental somersaults Shakespearean deniers have to make is hilarious.
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