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Mark Cookson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 108
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 6:28am | IP Logged | 1
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Having just picked up a huge haul of old Warrior mags I was reading through the original run of Marvelman (as was) and I know that you have had a few problems with Moore's writing in the past but I wondered what you thoughts were on this run and in general to the trend of heroes with feet of clay.
Personally, I like my heroes to be just that, heroes! Not sullied with endless amounts of angst.
What say you?
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John Byrne
Robot Wrangler
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 102266
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 7:35am | IP Logged | 2
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When I was a lad in England, the original MarvelMan was one of the comics I read, and one of my "favorite" characters. ("Favorite" for me in those days being defined as "what I am reading right this instant".) In fact, when I first saw Captain Marvel, knowing no better at the time, I thought he was a copy of MarvelMan.Anyway, to answer your question, with fond memories of MarvelMan behind me, I did not much care for Moore's take on the character. The "everything you know is a lie" approach is a card that should be played with great caution, and usually works best as a story arc, with all things restored at the end, rather than as a "big reveal".
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Bill Dowling Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2177
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 10:04am | IP Logged | 3
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I had always heard great things about MarvelMan/Miracleman and I found the Neil Gaiman issues and snatched them up. Afterwards I thought "Meh, not as good as Sandman, not really a superhero book, it was ok. I liked some more than others, but it didn't really leave an impact." Later I met someone who had all of the Alan Moore issues in trade paperback form and I read those. I was expecting a magnum opus based on what I had heard. They weren't all that. It didn't seem really to be that much better than Moore's Captain Britain and definitely was not as good as his Swamp Thing, Watchmen, or more recently Promethea, From Hell, or Top Ten.
In short: I think they were overrated. Even from the standpoint of accepting the "everything you know is a lie" and feet of clay stuff.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 31284
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 4
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I've read the first 7 issues ( thanks, Paul!) and came away with, "it's ok". I think I was expecting something on a grander scale. maybe I need the whole thing to appreciate it. I certainly saw where M***** got their idea for the Sentry from this, though.
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Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 5
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I'll be the contrarian yet again...I loved Miracleman and still do. For me it's only marred by the chapters with art by Chuck Beachum (today known as Chuck Austen) and Rick Veitch. Of all the revisionist superhero stories of the 80s, it's my favorite, at least conceptually, with its super-scientific take on the Billy Batson/Captain Marvel-type transformation. And the chapters with John Totleben's art, particularly the battle that destroys London and kills thousands, are astonishing and horrifying. And make me glad that superpeople only exist in fantasyland.
Admittedly, I don't have fond memories of Marvelman. Given that the character and his world were an imitation of the Marvel Family's, I can't really begrudge Moore for ripping that world to shreds.
By the way..."feet of clay"? I don't see what that concept has to do with Miracleman. Mike Moran is flawed, but not morally, and Moore's intent isn't to make Miracleman look bad/immoral. (Kid Miracleman is simply a case of absolute power corrupting absolutely.)
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Bob Simko Byrne Robotics Security
Negative Mod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 5982
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 11:42am | IP Logged | 6
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Miracleman as well as Kid Miracleman are cases of power corrupting...KM does it through violence, MM does it through forcing his "good intentions" on a society, whether they want it or not.
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Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 7
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Fair point, Bob, but in MM's case he really does have good intentions -- he might be wrong, but "corrupt" isn't quite the right word. In KM's case he's utterly corrupt and revels in it.
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Jeremy Nichols Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 634
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 8
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I have two issues of Miracleman... #1 and #3. Have no idea
where they came from, but I read them a lot as a kid, wishing I
had more. I liked the "everything you know is a lie" angle as a
kid. Haven't read them in forever, so they might not hold up as
well for me anymore.
"Forcing 'good intentions' on society." Well, that's what we
humans do. That's power. I mean, only by society's own forced
good intentions do we get that stealing, killing, etc. is wrong.
There is no REAL right and wrong. There is no REAL good and
evil. Just as there are no REAL unalienable rights to anything...
except maybe death. For now. We all act selflishly by what we
perceive as right. So, if someone had God-like powers, and he
thought society would benefit by forcing his intentions on it, I
couldn't really say that's a "corruption" of power. It's just the
natural employment of power.
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Darren De Vouge Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 December 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 3586
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | 9
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I enjoyed Alan Moore's take on the character if for no other reason than it enabled comic traditionalists and revisionists to both have their cake and eat it too. I can actually enjoy a revision that doesn't tear down what other writers have done but instead adds a new dimension to the story. The fifties material is very neatly self-contained and intact inside the backstory that Moore was weaving.
Of course if anyone were attempting to do this story today, it would be absolutely mandatory to deny in anyway possible the "non-realistic" storytelling of the fifties, so all those wonderful stories that provide source material would go the way of the garbage bin.
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Paul Greer Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 18 August 2004 Posts: 14190
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | 10
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I read Miracleman, when I was younger and really enjoyed it. ( You're welcome for those issues Brian ) What stood out then was that it was one of the first heroes with clay feet. To me it seemed fresh with a new perspective on super heroes. It wasn't until years later that I knew there was a real Marvelman comic. I just thought Moore was just doing a take on Captain Marvel, like he did with the characters of Watchman. However, fast forward about twenty years later and it seems the "hero" with feet of clay has become the norm, and reading Miracleman now would seem like every other book being put out today. Plus to know that it and other comics have caused this bleak image of heroes we see today takes some of the luster off the book.
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Jeremy Nichols Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 634
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 11
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It's all evolution. Comics produced a few "feet of clay" mutants,
and they thrived. So much so that they threatened the previous,
iconic comics... and have driven them almost to extinction.
I think, if you look back through comics history, one can see it
goes in phases. 30s-40s was pretty pulpy, mean... I mean,
BATMAN KILLED! 50s, 60s kinda silly and lighthearted
(Batman gives Superman a bomb as a joke)... etc, etc.
Something will replace the feet of clay when it starts to bottom
out. There's always a fittest. Just like biological evolution, it's
near-impossible to predict what it'll be, but we'll know it after it's
here!
(My prediction is it'll come from the independents, where the
edge is usually cut, and then sharpened by the big 2.)
I'm excited about it, actually. I think we'll be seeing a shift
soon... and I'm sure I'll miss the feet of clay then, too, like I miss
the early 80s books now... heh heh...
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Ted Downum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2380
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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | 12
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Jason Schulman wrote:
...And the chapters with John Totleben's art, particularly the battle that destroys London and kills thousands, are astonishing and horrifying. And make me glad that superpeople only exist in fantasyland.
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Totleben's work on this series was amazing.
I have mixed feelings about this series as a whole...but issue 15, the one in which KM destroys London, is probably still the single most viscerally affecting comic book I've ever read.
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