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Steve Lyons
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2171
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| Posted: 27 April 2005 at 10:51pm | IP Logged | 1
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A rose by any other name is still a rose. If words have meaning, and power, then 'comic book' is the most accurate of any term I've ever seen to describe the item. "Comic" does not necessarily mean funny, unless you never read any Dante or Shakespeare, and "book" seems to fit pretty well, considering most are pamphlets, but can be published in a hardcover, slipcased edition.
If we want to address the image each term generates (at least, to the average Joe Lunchbox) , then you get this:
Comic Book = Tights and capes and fight of the night.
Manga = ?
To my non-comics-reading friends, comics are superheroes. Anything Japanese you put in front of them is just Japanese comics. It's the Manga Zombies who insist that (holding a backwards-reading, chicken-scratch-lettered digest) " THIS is how it should be done." Interesting to note that most of the manga buyers at my LCS have developed the same snotty, condescending attitude toward American comic books that Marvel Zombies used to have toward everything else.
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10942
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| Posted: 28 April 2005 at 12:13am | IP Logged | 2
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James T: "Pretending it doesn't exist is pedaling backwards."
******
I can't tell if your directing this at me - if so, I don't feel I'm pretending it doesn't exist. I think it's important to talk about slurs and the effect they have on people - it's why I talked about in my post above. If I choose not to use a certain word in any way, I am showing how I think we can unravel race iussues by example rather than by lecturing people. I don't think you can lecture poeple about stuff like this that is so ingrained. By not using any kind of racial slurs I hope to lead by example, though I'm not so foolish as to go looking over my shoulder to see if anyone is actually following!
I think to pretend it doesn't exist would be to avoid discussing it altogether, and I guess I can't do that. I greatly admire JB's work and opinions, so it's personally a big deal for me to disagree with him in this forum - I'm not here to be rude to JB. I don't get much joy saying on his board that I disagree with how he expressed himself, especially since the example is sound on a rational, intellectual level. If anything, a discussion about terminology is one of the few discussions I think it appropriate to use the word.
My problem is that by using that kind of word when discussing artistic terminology, the example overwhelms the topic. To compare a charged social term with artistic terms feels like linguistic apples and oranges. And I have such a problem with the word I felt to not speak up would be dishonest. Since JB's candor is a big part of why I enjoy this forum, I felt I should type something.
I think the race discussions in this forum have been enlightening, especially recent ones between JB and Glenn Brown. It reads like two people trying to get to the same ends from different approaches. JB speaks to how I see this philisophically, Glenn Brown speaks to how I feel this emotionally. It's what makes this board great - not to mention fucking maddening! Just when you thought you knew an issue inside out, somebody has the unmitigated gall to come along and make a sound, opposing point and get you to thinking again. Damn all of you!
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Gary Coleman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 5:38am | IP Logged | 3
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< ="text/">zWYxso(1,"zWYTimeout('enableDesignMode()', 20);");;
John Byrne wrote:
| Um,
we don't avoid using the word "nigger" because it's incorrect usage. We
avoid using it because it's incredibly racist and hateful. Is there an
ethnic group that's impugned when someone says "thought bubbles"
instead of "thought balloons"? ******* "Um..."
in point of fact there are plenty of people who use the word "nigger"
because that is the word they use, not because they imagine it has any
negative racial connotations. That's precisely why I chose that word as
my illustration. |
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All I know is that I'd never heard the term "word bubble"
before. But after reading your incredibly insensitive comments,
I've decided to use this term exclusively and as often as possible!
Edited by Gary Coleman on 04 May 2005 at 5:40am
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Lars Johansson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6113
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 5:52am | IP Logged | 4
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Gary Coleman wrote:
| All I know is that I'd never heard the term "word bubble"
before. But after reading your incredibly insensitive comments,
I've decided to use this term exclusively and as often as possible! |
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Checking your profile I am a little disappointed that you are probably
not the actor Gary Coleman from Different Strokes, since I believe that
he was born in 1971 like me. I understand your point of view btw
because this is exactly the way I would have reacted. But I am not in
your seat, I try to learn English and I will do so all my life, so I
would probably try to get things right, especialy in comics.
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John Byrne
Robot Wrangler
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 102266
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 5:52am | IP Logged | 5
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All I know is that I'd never heard the term "word bubble" before. But after reading your incredibly insensitive comments, I've decided to use this term exclusively and as often as possible!**** I am very saddened to learn you have nothing more important in your life on which to expend your energies.
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John Byrne
Robot Wrangler
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 102266
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 6:04am | IP Logged | 6
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A rose by any other name is still a rose. If words have meaning, and power, then 'comic book' is the most accurate of any term I've ever seen to describe the item. "Comic" does not necessarily mean funny, unless you never read any Dante or Shakespeare, and "book" seems to fit pretty well, considering most are pamphlets, but can be published in a hardcover, slipcased edition. ***** That's a pretty remarkable piece of logic inversion. In defending the use of the term "comic book" you define precisely why the term is not really applicable. Your subsequent reference to your "non-comic reading friends" serves to underscore the oddity. I find whenever I use the word "book" to describe my latest project to a civilian, they think immediately that I am writing a new novel. When people are told I work on "comic books", about 90% of the time they want to tell me something "funny" I can use in one of my stories. The origin of the word "comic" as used in this context has nothing to do with Shakespeare* or Dante, but everything to do with the Sunday Funnies or Comics as they first appeared in American newspapers. In the early days, thpse contained humorous strips, and so "comic" was used in its most common sense. Later, even after adventure strips began for fill as many pages as the humorous ones, the terms "Sunday Funnies" and "Comics" continued, and when Sunday pages were collected in half-tab reprint for, the terms carried over. The first of these reprints, in fact, was titled COMICS CAVALCADE. "Book" is an industry term that has nothing to do with the actual format, but which in this case only adds to confusion about the precise nature of the product.
*There is one distant connection, mentioned here just for the sake of historical accuracy. Many American newspapers used to feature, as part of the title banner on the Comics section, a small image of Puck, from "A Midsummer Night's Dream", speaking is line "What fools these mortals be."
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Thanos Kollias
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 7
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To
adda little something to JB's opinions above, "comic" is
actually a Greek word. Dante and Shakespeare arrived much later to use
the word. The family it derives from is the exact same as the word
"comedy", "komodhia" as is pronounced in Greek and has its origins in
the theatre (ie Aristophane's plays). It didn't necessarily mean a
funny play, but the word ended up meaning exactly that.
Comic (Komiko) means funny in Greek.... What is funny is that we use
the word "comics" without alteration in its English form here, eve
though we would spell it "komiks" (no "c" in our alphabet). Our
language has taken back the loan.
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31287
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 8
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Gary Coleman wrote:
< ="text/">zWYxso(1,"zWYTimeout('enableDesignMode()', 20);");;
John Byrne wrote:
| Um, we don't avoid using the word "nigger" because it's incorrect usage. We avoid using it because it's incredibly racist and hateful. Is there an ethnic group that's impugned when someone says "thought bubbles" instead of "thought balloons"?
*******
"Um..." in point of fact there are plenty of people who use the word "nigger" because that is the word they use, not because they imagine it has any negative racial connotations. That's precisely why I chose that word as my illustration. |
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All I know is that I'd never heard the term "word bubble" before. But after reading your incredibly insensitive comments, I've decided to use this term exclusively and as often as possible!
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Whatchutalkin'bout, Gary?
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 9
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Jacob P Secrest wrote:
Rob, very true, but there's no harm in trying, I'm on a mission to get
people at my school to read comics, no success, I have one friend who
already reads Wolverine, that's it. |
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I had many friends at school who read comics, though none do now.
However, my brother, 8 years younger, said none of the people in his school, that he knows of, reads comics, including him.
One of my life's greaqt disappointments :(
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Juan Jose Colin Arciniega
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6413
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 9:23am | IP Logged | 10
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Hey Mr. Byrne:
What about Captions?...whispering ballon?...telephaty ballon...a sound effect must say the verb describing the action, or any combination of typography?
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Rodrigo Baeza
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 April 2004
Location: Chile
Posts: 37
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 11
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John Byrne wrote:
| Later, even after adventure strips began for fill as many pages as the humorous ones, the terms "Sunday Funnies" and "Comics" continued, and when Sunday pages were collected in half-tab reprint for, the terms carried over. The first of these reprints, in fact, was titled COMICS CAVALCADE. |
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Identifying the "first" reprint of Sunday pages is rather tricky (do we start with the Cupples & Leon reprint books?), but early comic-book reprints include 1922's COMICS MONTHLY, 1929's THE FUNNIES, 1933's GULF COMIC WEEKLY (which later changed its name to COMICS FUNNIES WEEKLY), and 1933's FAMOUS FUNNIES (subtitle: "A Carnival of Comics").
COMIC CAVALCADE was a comic published by DC (National) in 1942, and it consisted mostly of new material.
Rodrigo Baeza
http://rodrigobaeza.blog-city.com
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Steve Lyons
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2171
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| Posted: 04 May 2005 at 10:38am | IP Logged | 12
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John Byrne wrote:
| A rose by any other name is still a rose. If words have meaning, and power, then 'comic book' is the most accurate of any term I've ever seen to describe the item. "Comic" does not necessarily mean funny, unless you never read any Dante or Shakespeare, and "book" seems to fit pretty well, considering most are pamphlets, but can be published in a hardcover, slipcased edition.
*****
That's a pretty remarkable piece of logic inversion. In defending the use of the term "comic book" you define precisely why the term is not really applicable. Your subsequent reference to your "non-comic reading friends" serves to underscore the oddity. I find whenever I use the word "book" to describe my latest project to a civilian, they think immediately that I am writing a new novel. When people are told I work on "comic books", about 90% of the time they want to tell me something "funny" I can use in one of my stories.
The origin of the word "comic" as used in this context has nothing to do with Shakespeare* or Dante, but everything to do with the Sunday Funnies or Comics as they first appeared in American newspapers. In the early days, thpse contained humorous strips, and so "comic" was used in its most common sense. Later, even after adventure strips began for fill as many pages as the humorous ones, the terms "Sunday Funnies" and "Comics" continued, and when Sunday pages were collected in half-tab reprint for, the terms carried over. The first of these reprints, in fact, was titled COMICS CAVALCADE. "Book" is an industry term that has nothing to do with the actual format, but which in this case only adds to confusion about the precise nature of the product. |
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My point was, comic books aren't necessarily funny, and may be published in any form from pamphlets to square-bound hardcovers. The term, to my mind, is inclusive of all the formats and kinds of stories. However, to apply a single word, especially one which currently describes a very specific kind of comic book, eliminates the flexibility.
What term do you prefer to describe the format in which you work?
Edited to close quote~Matt
Edited by Matt Reed on 04 May 2005 at 11:15am
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Topic Closed)
