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Jacob P Secrest
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4068
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | 1
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Chris Rayman wrote:
Jacob P Secrest wrote:
I have to disagree, I feel that if it is a collected story of differerent
individual issues of a limited series (ala Sin City) then it should be a
graphic novel |
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Its not a question of whether it should or should not be one. It's
not. They are, as you said, individual comic books. |
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But I feel if it's a miniseries, designed to be done as one story under one
title, nothing more, nothing less, then it is a graphical novel.
Very much the same way Charles Dickens's work are considered novels,
even though many of them were published in serialized form.
Chris Rayman wrote:
QUOTE:
| also, I go with what JB said. |
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Which was that the term didn't necessarily apply but we should let the
masses call it what they want, if it makes them feel better about them.
Like many here, I'm all for, as JB said, "encouraging the misuse" if it
furthers the medium, but you can't deny, for example, that The Dark
Phoenix Saga (as it later became known), before it was collected and
marketed as something else, was what it was: comic books. |
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I agree with you on Dark Phoenix, because it was published as a single
story (though through multiple issues) as part of a whole, Sin City was
published as serialized mini-series, therefore IMHO making them
graphic novels (at least the collection, individual I would say it's fair to
call them a comic).
Also, if for some reason Christian Bale is reading, Batman: Year One is
not a graphic novel.
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 2
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Matt, "anime" is not a genre, either. It's the Japanese word for
animation, which they in turn took from the French. It
encompasses everything from the porno cartoons to Spirited Away to
Milllenium Actress to adaptations of manga like Akira or Barefoot Gen.
I'd also say the pic Bob picked was just a bad, exploitive
picture. That's why I picked made-in-the-USA Liefeld too counter
it.
Furthermore, I picked Sanctuary because it avoids many of the cliches
associated with the Japanese scene. Ikegami generally avoids the
big eyes thing. He goes for more anatomical realism in the
tradition of Goseki Kojima (Lone Wolf and Cub, Samurai Executioner).
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36084
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | 3
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You can still see it though, Eric. Pretty hard to miss in both your example and LONE WOLF.
Anyhow, Bob's right. I think calling American comics "Manga" just to jump on the bandwagon would be a bad idea and wouldn't represent what the term has come to mean.
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Michael Hatton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 525
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 4
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Manga does not mean Japanese Comics. Manga is Japanese for comics.
---Mike.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 5
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Michael Hatton wrote:
Manga does not mean Japanese Comics. Manga is Japanese for comics.
---Mike.
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I think we all get that, at least those debating it in this thread. That said, the word "Manga" has taken on a meaning here in the states that associates it with Japanese comics. That's undeniable, even though it's simply Japanese for "comics".
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 6
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Of course different cultural traditions feed into a different aesthetic
in art. That's a no-brainer. But to say that Japanese
comics and American comics are fundamentally different things is
ludicrous. "Manga" and "comics" are not different art forms;
they're different branches of the same art form.
When Osamu Tezuka died, there was national mourning in Japan. When Jack Kirby or Will Eisner died, was
there any great commemoration of them outside of our relatively small
fan base? I'm very sad to say that there wasn't.
The point I'm trying to make here is that language does matter.
The very term "comic book" lessens the medium and I'm not sure "graphic
novel" would work much better. It sounds too much like we're
self-consciously trying to create a new term. People will just
hear "graphic novel" and think "P.C. term for a comic book".
"Manga", however, is a strange foreign word, alien to our language
family. Given a little bit of time, perhaps its meaning could
shift to cover the medium in a way that "comic book" and "graphic
novel" can't. For now, though, we section everything off and
limit it to meaning Japanese comic books, which in turn sends us into
the medium=genre tailspin.
Maybe I'm wrong and "graphic novel" will work, and in a generation or
so people will refer to them as such with a bit more sense of
legitimacy. I doubt it, but we'll see.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 7
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Eric Kleefeld wrote:
But to say that Japanese comics and American comics are fundamentally different things is ludicrous. "Manga" and "comics" are not different art forms; they're different branches of the same art form.
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Didn't say that, but roll with it, Eric.
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Jacob P Secrest
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4068
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 8
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Using the term "manga" for American comics to me is ludacrous, while I
acknowledge that it wouldn't be incorrect, it probably wouldn't give
respect to comics, and it probably wouldn't be well recieved by fans
whether it be fans of manga or American.
ps - I have nothing against manga, I've never gotten into it, though yet
again, I've never tried.
I just want in no way anything I say to be percieved as a knock on manga.
Edited by Jacob P Secrest on 26 April 2005 at 4:56pm
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Todd Hembrough
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 9
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This discussion is sort of like talking about how to put a dress on a pig and get everyone who sees it to call it a debutante.
Comics are comics, and calling them something else, like manga, graphic
novels, or whatever is ludicrous. Especially if your goal is not to
more precisely describe the art form, but to 'trick' people into
respecting the medium.
Comics get little or no respect from civilians because at their heart
they are (or were) kiddie books, and intended to be 'grown out
of'. As JB has said many times, it is a new phenomena that the
readers are growing with these books, and demanding that changes
be made to accomodate them. I dont think this helps the process,
since the civilian view now is that these grown-up readers are arrested
weirdos (a la Comic book guy).
We all know that we are normal, but there is no denying that a subset of our ilk are a bit weird.
Todd
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Bob Simko
Byrne Robotics Security
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | 10
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Eric Kleefeld wrote:
"Manga", however, is a strange foreign word, alien to our language family. Given a little bit of time, perhaps its meaning could shift to cover the medium in a way that "comic book" and "graphic novel" can't. For now, though, we section everything off and limit it to meaning Japanese comic books, which in turn sends us into the medium=genre tailspin.
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I think you underestimate the impression that "manga" has on the average "civillian". I know people who never pick up a comic, and have the "Happy, Happy, Rape, Rape" impression of manga that Mike mentioned earlier. If you want to take the energy to retrain people from thinking of manga as just wide-eyed, sailor suit wearing adolescents, you'd probably be more successful just redefining the image perceived about "comic books"
JB said it well, long ago...if Ken Burns did a documentary on the history of comic books in the same vein that he did with baseball and jazz, it'd go a long way.
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 11
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Bob Simko wrote:
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Because this:
is not this:
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But that ^^^^ isnt this
 or this either 
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John Benson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1070
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 12
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The PC police deserve all the sarcasm they recieve. And using "Manga" for "comicbooks"...?
NO!
Isn't Batman enough of a Ninja already?
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Topic Closed)
