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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 11:30am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I can't address the information heard from CBC and CTV Canada, but there's been no hysteria on this thread unless you have a different meaning of the word.

On this page alone, we've shared FACTS and our outrage at the situation. CHILDREN are suffering because of this administration's "zero tolerance" policy. No one can undo the past on immigration but we should be concerned about the present course of action and how it will progress in the years to come. For the few misrepresentations out there, there are plenty of FACTS... for those willing to "dig beneath the surface". It's not that difficult.

-C!


Edited by Charles Valderrama on 23 June 2018 at 11:32am
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

The media sure didn't have photos of burnt bodies with a photo-shopped Obama looking at them or whatever. 

——

Not to that ridiculous extent, no. But there was definitely criticism of Obama’s drone strikes from CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, etc, complete with photos meant to make you think of the children. Certainly they didn’t get the traction that the current story does, but I think that says less about the media and more about Americans’ cognitive dissonance with regard to the collateral damage that comes with securing their safety.

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 Michael Roberts wrote:
Certainly, call out bias and misinformation from every source, but this “both sides” thing is bullshit.

Couldn't have said it better.  Agree 100%.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"not to say one lie compared to a thousand is equal" I wrote, but I do see people name-calling and yelling absolutes at each other and it's not listening or learning, and it leads to nowhere positive.Reactionism, manufactured outrage, no thanks to that from anyone.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 24 June 2018 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Not to entirely discount real trauma as I'm sure there is some, but I've seen and heard little kids have absolute meltdowns in supermarkets; you'd swear they were being abducted and murdered! Ten minutes later they are normal again. Seeing a group of women, some in emotional hysterics, trying to stop a bus full of children in Texas the other day is not being the adult.

They were being manipulated, playing Mr. Trump's game. Sessions and Trump are proven 'right' in that people are having second thoughts about trying to come to the U.S. because of that screaming child media frenzy reaching saturation level everywhere. You helped Trump/Miller/Sessions etc.

A lot of kids who came with adults have been separated for a lot of different reasons after entering the U.S. Some were crossing illegally, some making straight forward refugee claims, some of the adults were involved in smuggling (as in they are paid to get someone or something into the U.S.) and perhaps thought a child would act as some kind of shield for how they'd be treated. Stuff about pure innocence and pure evil is simple-minded.

"Enjoy yourselves folks, have a good time, great turn out" as Trump would say. If it's a distraction from anything it's been from Cohen and all these Russian connections we are still finding out about, and his upcoming meeting with Putin that should definitely not be happening while long-standing trade important to millions of people is verging on fubar.

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 24 June 2018 at 9:40am
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 24 June 2018 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 6 post reply


 QUOTE:
Not to entirely discount real trauma as I'm sure there is some

Some? What kind of stupid fuckery is this? Can you just stop? I'm an adult, and I still vividly remember the times I was lost in the mall. I still remember sobbing my eyes out for hours when my sister was born, because my parents dragged me out of bed and dropped me off at a friend's house without really explaining why my mom needed to be taken to the hospital. Certainly, I was able to overcome the trauma, but equivocating over whether young children are traumatized by being stripped away by strangers in a foreign country is fucking stupid. The answer is yes, it's traumatic.


 QUOTE:
They were being manipulated, playing Mr. Trump's game. Sessions and Trump are proven 'right' in that people are having second thoughts about trying to come to the U.S. because of that screaming child media frenzy reaching saturation level everywhere. You helped Trump/Miller/Sessions etc.

No, what helps Trump are voices like yours that suggest that outrage over children being separated from their parents is out of order. It's not. This "rational", "middle-ground" attitude is harmful. It's voices like yours that are recentering norms so that the middle ground lies between Nazis and anti-racists. That's not the middle.


 QUOTE:
A lot of kids who came with adults have been separated for a lot of different reasons after entering the U.S. Some were crossing illegally, some making straight forward refugee claims, some of the adults were involved in smuggling (as in they are paid to get someone or something into the U.S.) and perhaps thought a child would act as some kind of shield for how they'd be treated. Stuff about pure innocence and pure evil is simple-minded.

Whatever the reason, whatever responsibility the parents hold, traumatizing children as a matter of policy is wrong. Suggesting that people are being manipulated into outrage doesn't make it less wrong. Suggesting that media attention to the story plays into Trump's hand doesn't make it less wrong. There are lots of shades of gray with regard to how we should handle immigration. This is not one of them.

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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 24 June 2018 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

If it's a distraction from anything it's been from Cohen and all these Russian connections we are still finding out about, and his upcoming meeting with Putin that should definitely not be happening while long-standing trade important to millions of people is verging on fubar.

*****

See, I'm able to express my outrage toward Trump’s cruel immigration policy AND also pay attention to Cohen's potential flip, the Russian probe, the Trump-Putin summit, etc. It's what well-informed people do. No distraction to me.

Most importantly, I'll do what I can during the Mid-Term election and encourage 'the pendulum to swing the other way'!

-C!
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 24 June 2018 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I stand by that this has been very successfully exaggerated and milked by the media and Trump. In some places there have been crowds of opposing forces in the streets provoked into reactionism by out of context edited bits of material on both sides repeated ad nauseum. Wasn't it Hillary that said 'angry is not a plan'???

I hope things stabilize and get done rather than adding to the chaos, and hysterics and name-calling and plain old stunts are a load of junk to me. I'm glad to see there are some Republicans doing their job properly in spite of the idiot in chief right now, and I'm glad to see some reporters are actually doing informational reports on the situation over let's run this clip again for those who may not have seen/heard it and then to talk about that tiny glimpse we are joined by some biased talking-head characters.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 24 June 2018 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Afternoon news watching, I'd have to say CNN is the most one-track on this story. I know of all sorts of stories they aren't covering that effect as many or more people, although maybe they mention these things in that little ticker tape thing at the bottom, I can only read that for so long, wish they scroll up and let the text sit still, much better system. Meanwhile on BBC news they had an in-person interview with the Cookie Monster. No, it's just impossible to knock that. Make cookies, not war!

Who gets to throw around the terms Nazis anyway? We've had a week of that. I have family including my father who experienced first hand the brutality of the actual Nazis. He was even separated from his mother for a time over there in occupied Holland when people were being deliberately starved, and I'm sure that may have traumatized him even among other things happening. But how can places taking care of non-U.S. kids, where a 15 year old boy was able to just walk out of one the other day, be compared to nazi camps where my great-uncle was beaten to death? Saying little children are kept in cages is hysterical b.s., and held hostage is another phrase I've heard that is a lie.

Conversely, it isn't name-calling to say Trump is a racist when it's actually a proven fact a few times over at this point. People could have known this and many other things about his character before empowering him with their support and vote, it would be willful ignorance that any can say they had no inkling. I would argue idiot also has been proven but I'll accept some could still differ in that finding. For a supposed genius he isn't getting much in the way of positive results outside of not destroying the rate of employment curve from the last few years of Obama. Unless you want to think he has magically pacified North Korea with his great charm and resort development promo video.

Wait... now they are going on about some right wing fool using the term cotton-picking as in "hold on one _____ minute" when he was speaking to a black man. Happened on Fox news yet it's CNN magnifying it, replaying it and focusing on this as some kind of proof of a vast racism beyond Trump and a couple of his pals. Ridiculous. Definitely they are deliberately provoking if they keep on about this now. It's a lie to say they want dialogue and real communication with this kind of focus, they just want easy targets to manufacture more outrage. I'm really disliking CNN lately. :^(
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 25 June 2018 at 4:41am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I s'pose I get to throw around the term Nazis. Technically, the modern ones are neo-Nazis (or pseudo-Nazis), but my reference was to the original article, and worse prior monsters.

The Nazis didn't start full bore separating families, killing immigrants, killing and banning citizens, and forcing people to try to get out of the country however they could. However, I see too many similarities between Germany in the 30s and the US right now... including a backstabbing, lying, charismatic leader who wants to be leader forever.

Little children in cages - I suppose all the images I've seen COULD be faked... but those separated and isolated children are being held somewhere, and I'll bet it's NOWHERE as nice as a Trump Tower hotel. Maybe you'd not call it kidnapped... but they have been forcibly separated from their parents and there is no mechanism or process to restore these families.

Ms. Jansen, it would appear that we are seeing two different stories... I am willing to accept factual reporting from different sources, whereas you are skeptical. Maybe I'm right... maybe you're right. To me, it doesn't seem the kind of gamble I could afford to be wrong on - thus my outrage.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 25 June 2018 at 4:46am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I stand by that this has been very successfully exaggerated and milked by the media and Trump...

********

Exaggerated?? Good lord. 
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 25 June 2018 at 5:07am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Saying little children are kept in cages is hysterical b.s.

——

How is that hysterical BS? The detainees were kept in metal enclosures. Those are cages. My last job, we had an area to lock up old equipment. It was a metal enclosure, similar to where we saw children detained. We referred to that area as a cage. 

So what are you saying is BS? That they were children? That they were detained? That they were kept in a cage? Which part of this is hysterical BS?
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