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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7828
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 1
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Straight out of the Putin playbook:You shot down that passenger plane PutIn: no I didn’t We saw the rocket launcher PutIn: No, you didn’t
Just keep denying & move to the next thing
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 2
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"Give us some examples of comparable things Obama did that the media ignored."
Sure.... DRONE STRIKES ON CIVILIANS!
Come on. Presidents have to do some awful dirty things sometimes, so let's please dispense with the one side is pure goodness and charity and another is pure evil. If Bill Clinton had been more willing to get some blood on his hands when there was an opportunity to take out Bin-Laden there might not have been the WTC horror. He was so worried about his secular saintly 'I feel your pain' image.
You know I think Trump is awful, but let's get smart about things. You should be going after the Republicans for not targetting the employers of illegals rather than the much larger number of poor people it will cost lots more and be logistically ridiculous to go after even after this 'yuge' wall. Time doctoring up a couple photos is every bit as dumb as when some alt-right jerk changes the sign on a pink-hatted woman protestors sign in order to hurl abuse at them. Two wrongs never make a right (or a left). As I wrote earlier, be better, be calm, be smart, be thou not hysterical.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 3
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Let's get back to news that is information and not about proving something or entertainment. The media has been flipping out with one sound clip, one video clip and a couple still pictures for around a week now... you have been manipulated. Outrage manufacturing.... it's not going anywhere anytime soon. Two extremes yelling at each other, nobody listening. Warning, danger danger Will Robinson. Slip slide and away.
If you are going to extend constitutional rights and benefits of citizenship to the entire world as if they were citizens you are going to have problems. It's a reality. Balance is needed, not swings from one extreme to another, of bawling your eyes out for people you don't know to distrusting and blaming all foreigners. How do you get back to stability? Not with an unstable volatile leader who admits to loving chaos and debt!
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4185
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 4
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Rebecca Jansen wrote:
| Sure.... DRONE STRIKES ON CIVILIANS! |
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Oh, yeah, I remember seeing that on the news. And reports about how the Obama Administration was classifying anyone standing near an enemy combatant as an enemy combatant as well so they could reduce the numbers of civilians inadvertently killed in the official statistics.
Or I guess I didn't see that because apparently the media didn't report it?????
Hmmm...
No one's claiming sainthood for anyone here. But deplorable actions need to serve a greater good. Keeping migrant workers and asylum seekers out of the country doesn't necessarily meet those standards compared to what's being done to try to stop it. (Especially when you consider what's not being done - as you say, if you really don't want migrant workers, target the people hiring them.)
QUOTE:
| As I wrote earlier, be better, be calm, be smart, be thou not hysterical. |
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I agree in principle, but sometimes a little moral outrage is justified. Yeah, don't let one Twitter photo send you into a tizzy, but when you dig into the details and you realize it really IS that bad, what else are you supposed to do?
Edited by Dave Phelps on 22 June 2018 at 10:38am
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 5
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The media sure didn't have photos of burnt bodies with a photo-shopped Obama looking at them or whatever. I think Time crossed a line with their cover. As the old 'Major' in the Bengal room would mutter... "standards have fallen !"
I guess I'm afraid that people played into the hands of the Trumpians by over-reacting, and in that getting anything wrong becomes 'proof' of them being right, even if they get more things wrong and outright lie. It's just not a good balance. It might be boring to just correct things as matter-of-factly as possible, but it's also setting yourself up as a place to turn when the hysterics are exhausted and a lot of people have been burnt by buying and defending a side at all costs. There should be only one side and you build that by sticking to rational time-proven basics. Winners and losers is for some team sport, I don't want that kind of roller-coaster for entire nations.
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Thomas Woods
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1356
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 6
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It used to be that boarder crossings where just
economic opportunists. Under Obama it transformed from
largely unaccompanied single males to people
traveling with KIDS. Under Obama the boarder arrests
with people traveling with kids went up five times the
amount in four years.
In 2013 when this number was first reported, it was
15,000. in 2017 it was 75,000.
Why did that change? We know that in general people
are not crossing the boarder due to fear of
prosecution or asylum request. How do we know that?
When Trump came in and everyone thought the boarder
was no longer a cake ride, the boarder crossings
reduced to a very low level. But when people realized
the boarder was still open for business, the numbers
went back up.
The ebb and flow of this is entirely based on how easy
they feel it is to get across the boarder illegally.
It's economic opportunism.
Why is there child separation at the boarder? Illegal
aliens enter the USA illegally, putting their kids at
risk.
They are only separated if they find the adult is
falsely claiming to be the parent, is a danger to the
child, or is put into criminal proceedings.
The past policy was to give a free pass to any family
unit, and so they started coming as family units.
Makes sense that this increased?
Trump sent a signal that there is no free pass, that
adults will be held accountable for entering by
illegal means instead of going to a port entry and
claiming asylum.
These paths are dangerous across the boarder, and no
parent should ever put their kids in that situation.
They should not be encouraged to go the illegal rout.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14859
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 7
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Affirmative Asylum Processing With USCISTo obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status.
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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4505
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 8
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Careful Michael, citing actual information from a US government website that contradicts the current messaging coming from the WH is likely to get the website taken down.
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Thomas Woods
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1356
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 9
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Every year people come to the United States seeking
protection because they have suffered persecution or
fear that they will suffer persecution due to:
- Race
- Religion
- Nationality
- Membership in a particular social group
- Political opinion
Do you think they have a case using Defensive Asylum?
You know the vast majority are doing it for economic
reasons.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14859
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 10
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Americans: I would never visit [insert Central American country] because of the violence, drug cartels, poverty, etc.
Same Americans: Those [Central Americans immigrants] aren’t really in danger. They are just economic opportunists.
Even if that were the case, given all that parents go on about with regard to the lengths they would go through for their children, I am not going to begrudge someone trying to feed their family. I’d prefer an illegal immigrant feeding his kids over a US citizen who was a deadbeat dad.
Obviously, we can’t help everyone. And we can’t leave the border unchecked. But cruelty to children in order to discourage illegal immigration is not the solution.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 11
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And guess what, now there's evidence that, thanks to this media hysteria, people south of the U.S. border are considering not crossing because they don't want their children 'taken'. Deterrent factor achieved. Great work replaying and reshowing those few things day after day.
Doing Trump's dirty work for him... Democrats...
Rep. Ted Lieu (D) of California violated House rules Friday by playing a recording of crying children who were separated from their parents at the border, ignoring a presiding officer who implored him to stop.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jun/22/ted-lieu-pl ays-tape-crying-children-house-floor/
Sen. Bob Menendez (D) of N.J. played audio obtained from inside a facility used to detain migrant children separated from their families during a speech on the Senate floor Tuesday.
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/393117-dem-play s-audio-from-child-detention-center-on-senate-floor
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 22 June 2018 at 12:34pm
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4851
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| Posted: 22 June 2018 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 12
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At least 2,500 children have already been taken from their parents and sent to shelters in at least 15 states. Some are as young as a few months old. Hundreds have been apart from distraught parents for several weeks.
Regardless of the deterrent factor, the fallout from this is that many children will never be reunited with their parents.
No amount of SPIN will change that.
-C!
Edited by Charles Valderrama on 22 June 2018 at 1:09pm
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