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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2230
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 12:08am | IP Logged | 1
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Michael, in the case you describe, you'd have been the victim of fraud. Any sane law (not that there's tons of those) would allow for a judge to compensate for extenuating circumstances, like being a refugee, etc. Deportation is hardly the only possible outcome. If you were raised in the US thinking you were a citizen then turned out not to be due to fraud, the perpetrators of the fraud (depending on circumstances) are the only ones who should be deported. It's certainly possible to come up with exotic scenarios (what if your parents were spies?) but any sanely crafted law should not punish the innocent. In the exact scenario you mention, I'd think after finding out you'd been raised here, were not a minor and wished to stay, the next words out of the judge's mouth should be "raise your right hand." Just for context, note these stats: http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested- statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states#Current and Historical and Historical 41 million immigrants in the US, 30 million of which are legal. That's 30 million people who filled out the paperwork, got an entry visa, came here to go to school or do business and/or get on the path to citizenship (which is almost half). That's awesome. Pretty much the only thing propping up our population. As "open door" policies go, perhaps the most generous on the planet. The 11.4 million illegals, however may have had to come here at great risk of harm (running across deserts, hiding in shipping containers, etc.) to work uninsured jobs that are unregulated by OSHA, and are paid far below the minimum wage, much less a fair wage. I think any sane migrant worker policy, would allow all of them to come here in safety, get paid a fair wage for jobs that obviously need doing, allow them to go home to their families secure in the knowledge that next season they can come back legally for more work without the risk of entering the criminal justice system or worse. Any advocation of the current system is basically allowing the exploitation of these people in perpetuity. Something has to change.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133555
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 4:47am | IP Logged | 2
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Parallel to this, I have been disturbed by the slow but steady transformation of "illegal" into "undocumented." It feels very much like one of those language patches, "addressing" a problem by calling it something else. "Undocumented" sounds like someone left their wallet at home, not like they made a deliberate decision to violate our laws before they even entered the country.
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Petter Myhr Ness Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 3931
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 5:27am | IP Logged | 3
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Over here, one of your parents need to be a citizen for you to gain citizenship upon birth. That makes sense to me.
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James Reese Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 July 2015 Location: United States Posts: 434
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 4
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Another recent trend is Chinese "birth tourism", where wealthy Chinese women come to the US specifically to give birth here so their child will have American Citizenship.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/01/china-us-birth-tour ism_n_7187180.html
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John Bodin Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3911
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 5
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John Byrne wrote:
Parallel to this, I have been disturbed by the slow but steady transformation of "illegal" into "undocumented." It feels very much like one of those language patches, "addressing" a problem by calling it something else. "Undocumented" sounds like someone left their wallet at home, not like they made a deliberate decision to violate our laws before they even entered the country. |
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All in the name of political correctness, natch -- wouldn't want to offend anybody whose actual intent was to break the law by accusing them of intentionally breaking a law!
:-/
[EDITED FOR TYPOS]
Edited by John Bodin on 20 August 2015 at 7:06am
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Joseph Greathouse Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 August 2015 Location: United States Posts: 591
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 6
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"Undocumented" isn't so much a matter of political correctness as much as accuracy. "Illegal immigrant" has a couple inherant problems as a term that create the offense.
First, many immigration violations are civil rather than criminal. Someone who enters the US without a visa, or stays past the expiration date is committing a civil violation and can be deported, but that doesn't always mean that they should.
Second, it criminalizes people rather than their actions. As an example, we wouldn't categorize someone who gets pulled over and is found driving with an expired drivers license (which IS a criminal violation) as an "illegal". Many of us don't feel we should criminalize someone, say an exchange student who let his or her visa lapse inadvertantly, as "illegal" either.
Third, it assumed guilt without due process.
Fourth, their is a significant percentage of individuals who came to the US unwillingly, as minors. Illegal implies a motivation to those who can not be held responsible for their actions. But, at the same time, this is the only home they have known and are frequently highly productive and ideal members of our society (sometimes moreso than those that are natural born).
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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2230
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 7
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In which case, I like the term "Unauthorized" from the link in my last post as a catch-all.
Someone who let their documentation lapse are plenty documented and in the system, just no longer authorized to be here.
A smuggler on the other hand (plenty illegal and undocumented) would still fall under the term.
n.b., I hate arguing semantics, but being a fan of science, I appreciate the value of precise language.
BTW, welcome to the JBF, Joseph! Hope you have a great time!
Edited by Conrad Teves on 20 August 2015 at 1:25pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133555
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | 8
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n.b., I hate arguing semantics, but being a fan of science, I appreciate the value of precise language.••• So do I. And it's illegal to break the law. Even accidentally. Which is why we have laws and courts, and shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. (Not directly related: so many movies give us heroes wrongly accused of a crime and embarking upon a crusade to clear themselves. Along the way they break and enter, steal cars, kidnap, even kill [but only bad people!]. I've wanted for years to see one of those movies end with Our Hero exonerated for A, then hauled off to jail for B, C, D....)
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12767
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 9
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Federal law deems aliens without a right to be here "deportable aliens." They include: Any alien who is present in the United States in violation of this chapter or any other law of the United States, or whose nonimmigrant visa (or other documentation authorizing admission into the United States as a nonimmigrant) has been revoked[.] -- and all under the heading, Present in violation of law<.
If you're an alien not allowed to be here, you're an illegal alien.
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Steve De Young Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008 Location: United States Posts: 3517
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Posted: 20 August 2015 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 10
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I have a more basic philosophical problem with the whole idea of 'citizenship' from the perspective of the founding documents of the United States. If indeed man is invested naturally with certain inalienable rights by virtue of being human, i.e. it is not the government that grants those rights, but rather it is the job of a rightly formed government to protect the rights which are inherent to human beings...
...then wouldn't a well-ordered government protect the inalienable human rights of every human being? Particularly any human being who finds him or herself within that government's sphere of influence/borders?
I reject the idea that some kind of military adventurism is required, i.e. that the U.S. must go around the world 'liberating' people. But I also don't see how we can send someone who enters our territory from a nation that is not protecting their rights and turn them around and send them back.
Put another way, our founding documents argue that rights are inherent in every human person as human person, therefore every person on this planet has Constitutional rights, not just Americans. There's been a radical distortion since the founding of this country in terms of the role of government, and I think the present debate is taking place on terms derived from that distortion, not the original intent.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133555
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Posted: 21 August 2015 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 11
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Humans are invested with certain "inalienable" rights, one of which the Founding Fathers clearly thought was the right to form nations. And nations, by definition, have the right to structure themselves however they wish, including deciding who will be allowed in, and under what circumstances.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12767
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Posted: 21 August 2015 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 12
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...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
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