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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2230
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 1
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David>>Make no mistake, scaling back one of the greatest civil rights landmarks in American history in a legal effort affecting millions of people, would be interpreted as repeal.<<
I'm clearly missing something here. Exactly how would a clause restricting a birthright to babies born of foreign nationals here illegally (NOT those here legally) affect the rights of any Americans of any ethnicity in any way at any time? By my math, exactly zero Americans would lose their citizenship or any of their rights?
BTW, much of this would be unnecessary if we simply had a humane migrant worker policy that didn't require desperate people to dash across the desert for jobs that had unfair wages. I.e., they'd always know they could come back for work.
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Paul Reis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 931
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 2
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JB, if i counted correctly, and having been born elsewhere and become a Canadian citizen (ages ago), i agree with all 8 of your posts. just for curiosity, and since i have the time, i think i'll check Canada's position on what you bring up.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14863
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | 3
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My parents were both immigrants, my father being naturalized before
he brought my mother over and my mother being naturalized a few
years after I was born. They were both here legally, but I've considered
what would be the case if that had been all a lie:
I have very little connection to my parents' country of origin. I don't
speak the language and know little of the culture. All my life I had been
raised believing I was an American. It seems inordinately cruel to
deport me to a country I have no experience with. Why should I suffer
for the sins of my parents?
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Laren Farmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 975
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 4
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Micheal, you never have to ask that question because your parents did it the right way.
Just like every other child of parents who followed the rules don't have to ask that question.
But the children who suffer because their parent's broke the rules. That's sad...but that's that fault of the parents. So that's why there should be more done to stop the people who aren't following the rules...to prevent them inflicting such harm on their children.
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Jason Stephens
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 August 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 226
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 5
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I also believe that just being born here should not automatically make you an American citizen. It is being abused continuously here in Arizona. If you want to become an American citizen then go through the legal channels like many of my friends have done.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14863
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | 6
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But the children who suffer because their parent's broke the rules.
That's sad...but that's that fault of the parents. So that's why there
should be more done to stop the people who aren't following the
rules...to prevent them inflicting such harm on their children.
-----
If we see a child left alone in the back of a car on a warm summer day
with the windows rolled up, do we keep walking and say, "Well, that's
sad. The parents broke child safety rules"? Whatever the sins of the
parents, we would still be in the position of deporting people who
believed they were Americans to a foreign country that they might have
no connection with, over something they had no control over.
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Laren Farmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 975
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | 7
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The locked car example is entirely different.
Also...what is worse? Taking a child away from their parents so they can stay in America, or deporting the child but keeping their family unit intact?
It's not right that children should suffer because of their parents...but when the parents do something wrong...we can't give them a pass because they have children. I'm sure you don't advocate letting every inmate with a child out of prison this instant.
And we're not talking about locking people up in this case. We're sending them back to their country of origin where it is up to THEM to make up for the wrongs they've done to their kids. It is THEIR responsibility after all.
Which brings me back to my point...let's do everything we can to stop people coming in to the country illegally, so that they're will be less kids that ever have to suffer.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14863
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
Also...what is worse? Taking a child away from their parents so
they can stay in America, or deporting the child but keeping their family
unit intact? |
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The latter. The first one is no different from a child whose parents are
imprisoned for a crime. The child suffers from the fallout, but the parents
are the ones being punished. The second one is placing a punishment on
both the child and the parents. And what about if the children are already
adults, or the parents have passed away? Is the "keep the family" intact
argument still viable?
QUOTE:
And we're not talking about locking people up in this case. We're
sending them back to their country of origin |
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When you are referring to the children, NO YOU ARE NOT. You are sending
them to the country of their parents' origin. For the children, you are
exiling them to a foreign country.
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Laren Farmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 975
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | 9
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So you are for taking children away from families if the families can't stay in this country?
Suppose that two legal immigrants have a child in America, that child knows only America and nothing of any other country. Then when the child is about 8 or 9, the parents decide to move back to their country of origin...perhaps they suffered a huge financial setback and believe they'd be better off back in their old home. Is that grounds for the child to be taken from their parents?
Now back to the question of illegal parents...granted, in some cases where they are unfit parents or perhaps willing to give up custody of their young child...the child could be legally adopted by American citizens...they're are a lot of childless citizens looking to adopt after all.
In in the case of older children...teens or adults...there could be mechanisms put in place that could allow them citizenship.
But I don't think we should use the argument of not punishing the children to stop us from what is most important...stopping illegal immigration so that these situations can be prevented.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: United States
Posts: 14863
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 10
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But I don't think we should use the argument of not punishing the
children to stop us from what is most important...stopping illegal
immigration so that these situations can be prevented.
-----
Taking away birthright citizenship does not equal stopping illegal
immigration.
You want to stop illegal immigration, increase the punishments for
employers who hire undocumented workers. I think employment in the
present is more incentive for illegal immigration than hoping that your kid
can sponsor you for citizenship 21 years in the future.
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Laren Farmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 975
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | 11
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I'm all for all measures to stop illegal immigration.
Your thoughts on the matter have been interesting and made me ponder a few things as well. And I do think your hypothetical situations are useful. But that you also may be overlooking a few points.
- child born in America to illegal immigrants. Child grows to adulthood in America before parent's status is discovered.
At that point, wouldn't the child be naturalized? If not...I don't think most people would object to allowing him to take the citizenship test and become a citizen.
- child born in America to illegal immigrants. Parents die while child is still a minor.
In this case the child would go to the closest relative or designated guardian. If said person was in another country...that is where the child would go. While you may find this unfair, it is exactly what would happen to a child who was born to legal citizens...if their only relatives or guardians happened to live in another country. If there are no suitable relatives or guardians to be found...then the child could be adopted by American citizens. Certainly I don't see anyone wanting to deport a child to another country if they have no family or guardians waiting for them there.
- child born in America to illegal immigrants, parents are discovered and deported while child is still a minor.
If the child is old enough to be legally emancipated and live as an adult...they should have that option if they wish. If the child is not, and the parents are willing to give up custody to American citizens (or judged to be so unfit that custody is revoked)...then the child can be adopted by legal citizens.
If however the parents are not unfit and do not wish to give up custody...that becomes troubling. I believe you are advocating that the child's citizenship rights trump the family custody rights. I think that the majority of people would disagree...though I could be wrong.
I can imagine however many people screaming about how the government has no right to take children from their parents (unless those parents are unfit).
The reality is that minor children are the responsibility of their adult guardians...and if those guardians move to another country for any reason...the children have no say in the matter. So if the parents are deported...and unwilling or unable to turn the custody of their children over to someone of legal status...the children have no say in the matter.
Edited by Laren Farmer on 19 August 2015 at 8:04pm
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14863
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| Posted: 19 August 2015 at 8:47pm | IP Logged | 12
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I've spoken on this board in the past about the stereotype of the Asian-
American as a perpetual foreigner. The stupid questions and
assumptions we sometimes receive because non-Asians unconsciously
perceive us as immigrants, despite the fact that we were born here and
might have roots in America going back generations. When we talk
about the possibility of deporting people who were born and raised in
the US, I feel that some advocates of this position (and I'm not accusing
anyone in this thread of this) feel comfortable overlooking the
unfairness of deporting people who are ostensibly American to foreign
countries, because in their mind, they are just sending brown-skinned
foreigners back home. If it were an all-American, suburban white kid
who found out her parents were illegal immigrants, and she was being
deported to the Ukraine, they'd react differently.
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