Author |
|
Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
|
Posted: 08 June 2015 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
Go with a simple "good for her," and leave it at that.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Charles Valderrama Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4859
|
Posted: 08 June 2015 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
JB, you stated best how I feel on this subject when you wrote, "Here's a question: if one is, for instance, a "woman trapped in the body of a man," how would one know? Not having at any time been a woman, what is the frame of reference?"
I'm all for people being comfortable and living however they need to live, but I can't understand how one can feel like a woman without having those hormones, etc inside…. what IS the frame of reference?? His mom?
-C!
Edited by Charles Valderrama on 08 June 2015 at 3:19pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Brian J Nelson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 August 2014 Location: United States Posts: 365
|
Posted: 08 June 2015 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
If you have that question, you should be asking someone who is transgendered. An in depth conversation is the only way to understand.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Ray Brady Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3740
|
Posted: 08 June 2015 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
"Here is a key question for me: What is the harm in identifying a person by whatever gender they identify as? If a person with two X chromosomes and a vagina has a male gender identity, what is the harm in us (the public) viewing and treating that person as a man?"
-----
If everyone behaved themselves, there wouldn't be any. Unfortunately, the government does need to make some decisions about what kind of behavior is acceptable, and there will always be people eager to abuse those decisions.
It's probably the most obvious complication, but consider competitive sports. What do you do if a biological man wants to compete in the Olympics as a woman? Should the IOC be legally obligated to permit it?
People tend to trivialize the bathroom argument, but there is a real consideration in environments like public locker rooms. Should biological women be expected to welcome biological men into shared showers? If so, what is the potential for abuse by non-transgendered men?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Mike Benson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 January 2010 Location: United States Posts: 835
|
Posted: 08 June 2015 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
People tend to trivialize the bathroom argument, but there is a real consideration in environments like public locker rooms. Should biological women be expected to welcome biological men into shared showers? If so, what is the potential for abuse by non-transgendered men?
*******
Kaitlyn isn't the first transgendered person on the planet. And how many accounts of such abuses have you heard? Necessary accommodations for transgendered individuals are already a reality in many public places and workspaces. Often as simple as creating a single user, gender neutral restroom.
I'm a gay man. Should I have my own showers in a locker room so that the heteros don't get uncomfortable? Despite what the pornographers would have you believe, I'm really just there to shower.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Paul Kimball Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2207
|
Posted: 08 June 2015 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
Traditionally, women are imagined to "think differently" because they are seen as being more at the mercy of their hormones than are men. But that cannot be the case in a "transgender," can it? Not before treatment, anyway.
####### I wonder if women are imagined to "think differently" because we live in a world where normally men have the advantages and hence male is the default "normal" and everything else is different.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Neil Lindholm Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: China Posts: 4946
|
Posted: 08 June 2015 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Good article in the New York Times.
What Makes a Woman?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6508
|
Posted: 08 June 2015 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Good article in the New York Times. What Makes a Woman?
**
Her points make a good case for the experience of women as a collective -- but her specific objections to Jenner could be leveled at my young daughter. My daughter has not shared any of the bruises and pains of womanhood-- is she not female?
The intrinsic nature of this male/female brain question is about the fundamental level of experience. If male and female minds work exactly the same, then this gender-bending stuff is nonsense. But if they truly look out through their visual receptors and perceive time and space in a slightly different, but equally valid way then it would explain a lot. Men and women obviously experience most things in the same general way. We function in the same society with more or less the same agreed upon rules. But if there is a subtle difference and it made you feel insane because you could not make your mind think the way others of your gender do-- and could only too easily think the way the other gender does... It would be a relief to finally admit you were trapped in the wrong body. (Of course, then your troubles would be far from over.)
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133555
|
Posted: 09 June 2015 at 6:05am | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
Her points make a good case for the experience of women as a collective -- but her specific objections to Jenner could be leveled at my young daughter. My daughter has not shared any of the bruises and pains of womanhood-- is she not female? •• If she wasn't born in a female body, no. But I suspect she was. This is the real starting point of this discussion: being born male or female, physically, sets up a series of parameters. Those parameters are not really altered if the male puts on a dress and declares himself to be a woman. (I have grown tired of transvestites being called "she.") As so often happens in our Society, the pendulum has swung, and as it usually does it has swung further in one direction than the other. Thus, in the last hundred years or so, we have gone from being incredibly narrow and restrictive in matters sexual -- incarcerating homosexuals, for instance -- to stretching perhaps a little too far to be "all encompassing." I understand the biological processes that can happen in utero, which are considered by some to be the cause of "transgender" individuals, but, as some have noted, the jury is still out on whether this creates a genuine condition or a mental illness.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Roy Johnson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2013 Location: Canada Posts: 1323
|
Posted: 09 June 2015 at 6:06am | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
Jon Stewart's perspective is interesting: http://imgur.com/gallery/RJP1U
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133555
|
Posted: 09 June 2015 at 6:21am | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
As it currrently stands, we don't have enough scientific knowledge to truly understand what causes people to be transgender or how it works.What we do know is that it's a very difficult experience for those people, there's a lot of social stigma around it and many resort to suicide. So it's best to be respectful - live and let live. •• A REALLY hard question, then: Many people are tortured and driven by a desire to have sex with children. Our society frowns on this, and such people are considered mentally ill. We do not accommodate them, we do not respect them. How is being "transgender" different? Given all the twists and turns that have happened in our general understanding of how the brain and mind work -- still a work in progress -- how difficult is it to imagine a future in which it will be determined without doubt that "transgender" is, indeed, a mental illness? How will we feel about all those people who, instead of actually helping them, we encouraged in a program of self-mutilation? This is a long, long road, and so far we have taken barely a single step upon it. (Christine Jorgenson was half a century ago. How much has changed?)
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Paul Simpson Simpson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 April 2009 Location: United States Posts: 939
|
Posted: 09 June 2015 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
I wonder if women are imagined to "think differently" because we live in a world where normally men have the advantages and hence male is the default "normal" and everything else is different.********************** There is no imagination involved.Women think differently because they are women.Why do women only commit around 10% of all murders and a infinitesimal number of serial killings.Sounds like there is a big difference.Yes this is only one example,but it is a pretty big one.
Edited by Paul Simpson Simpson on 09 June 2015 at 7:12am
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|