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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 7:43am | IP Logged | 1
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ERIC LADD: Should Eric Sprague be considered a lizard trapped in a human's body?
I, for one, welcome our new Reptilian overlords.
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Brendan Howard
Byrne Robotics Member
FAQ Master Supreme
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4943
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 2
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I have a family member and many friends who are transgender. Almost none have undergone surgery, but most opt for hormone therapy. Surgery is expensive, and for many transgender people, the genitalia is not what self-defines gender, because it is not visible to the world anyway.
In Caitlyn's case, living as a woman means being called by the chosen pronoun and the chosen name, and being able to wear the clothes that she wants to wear.
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Antonio Diniz
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 53
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 8:37am | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
| A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. •• How does this cover people who are completely delusional, but not experiencing and "distress or disability"? |
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I suppose it depends on the definition of 'delusion'. The psychological term appears to be 'delusional disorder'. Per Psychology Today:
QUOTE:
| Delusional disorder refers to a condition associated with one or more nonbizarre delusions of thinking—such as expressing beliefs that occur in real life such as being poisoned, being stalked, being loved or deceived, or having an illness, provided no other symptoms of schizophrenia are exhibited. |
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Edited by Antonio Diniz on 10 June 2015 at 8:37am
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Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3517
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 4
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In Caitlyn's case, living as a woman means being called by the chosen pronoun and the chosen name, and being able to wear the clothes that she wants to wear.
------------------------
So, back to my original point, its about identifying with societal constructs of what a woman is, not anything relating to actually being a woman.
Coming at this from another angle, unless you think people have an immaterial soul, then it seems to me from a scientific basis, people are their body. Your body, of which your brain is a part, is you. It, and therefore you, can be damaged, injured, mutilated, not functioning properly, etc. and you can do all of those things to yourself. To put a finer point on it, if your conscious thinking doesn't match your body, why is the answer to try to manipulate your body to match your conscious thinking, rather than trying to manipulate your conscious thinking to match your body?
It seems to me like, in addition to clinging to outdated gender roles, the transgender narrative is also based in old-fashioned Cartesian dualism, i.e. Jenner is a female ghost accidentally inhabiting a male machine.
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Jesus Garcia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2414
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 5
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The Caytlin business -- other than driving up the sales of Tylenol -- has the merit of preparing humanity for first contact.
'Cause we KNOW they're gonna be different.
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Brendan Howard
Byrne Robotics Member
FAQ Master Supreme
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4943
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 12:49pm | IP Logged | 6
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You are assuming that gender self-identification is conscious thinking. If you (like me, and like most people) never gave your gender a second thought, then it's not really conscious thinking, is it?
Depression and suicide rates are as high as they are for transitioned and non-transitioned transgender people because they often want so badly to "adjust their conscious thinking" as you suggest. It's not so easy.
It would indeed be much easier if all people had the ability to force themselves to ignore an all-consuming desire to be seen as a different gender. I'm certain many are able to ignore it and lead productive lives. Bruce Jenner did so for decades. It is indeed possible to not act on such desires, just like homosexuals can choose not to date within their own gender, but it's not so easy to quiet the steady drum of your brain telling you that the way you see yourself and the way everybody else sees you are not in sync.
When someone you love adopts a new name, a new pronoun, and a different style of clothing, it can be difficult to get on board and adjust your way of thinking. But nobody gets hurt by these changes unless ignorance, misunderstanding, and bigotry get in the way.
I don't know that a pronoun is a "societal construct." Clothing is, I suppose, but it's also part of what makes you feel like yourself as you interact with the rest of society. I would not feel comfortable wearing a tuxedo to the mall; I would also not feel comfortable wearing a burlap bag. I don't feel comfortable wearing shorts and flip-flops to work, even though I work at a company where it is acceptable attire on most days. I wouldn't feel like Brendan if I dressed that way. Why? Dunno. Dressing down at work doesn't feel right to me.
In all cases I describe, the clothing is not necessarily gender-specific. In the case of a transgender person, they may feel more comfortable in gender-neutral clothing or wearing clothing that is associated with the opposite gender. Caitlyn Jenner chooses to dress as a woman and wear make-up. It's not the same as putting on a costume to perform as a character (like a drag queen, Boy George or Lady Gaga). It's not about getting a sexual thrill from wearing women's clothing (transvestic fetishism). It has NOTHING to do with finding a loophole to sneak in the ladies locker room. For all transgender people I know, it's about walking down the street or sitting on your couch and feeling comfortable in your own skin.
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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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I don't know if this thread is going anywhere, but it
sure makes for an entertaining read.
Personally, I don't know if Jenner is mentally unstable,
truly genetically and psychology prone to being a woman or
just desperate to reclaim the limelight.
What I can say is that I've seen episodes of the Kardashian
circus. The way his wife and step-daughters emasculate him,
and how warped that family's sense of reality is, nothing
that Jenner has done has shocked me.
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Brad Brickley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8290
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 8
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It makes no difference to me if someone wants to identify as another gender, it's their business and none of mine. If they're happy, then I am, because I'm not the one who has to live that life. To my thinking if someone wants to go through this process, there must be something to it, because why would you want to go through all this scorn and hassle otherwise?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | 9
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To my thinking if someone wants to go through this process, there must be something to it, because why would you want to go through all this scorn and hassle otherwise? ••• "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about."
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Jesus Garcia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2414
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 10
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I remember seeing a documentary about transgender people and the impact of the change on their families ... some of the family members were okay, most were confused as to what they were expected to feel ... and in one case a mother and father were shown in their living room, with a picture of their child as a young boy, and tears in their eyes as the mother was saying "I feel as though my little boy has died".
If trans' families can have this range of feelings, it's no wonder that people on the outside looking in scratch their heads. I can certainly sympathize with all parties involved.
Edited by Jesus Garcia on 10 June 2015 at 8:45pm
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2217
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| Posted: 10 June 2015 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | 11
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"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about."
_______________________
Thus perfectly describing the Kardashian clan's MO. I await the leak of the Kris Kardashian sex tape, followed by her nude photo shoot in Paper Magazine.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 11 June 2015 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 12
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Unfortunately, it was just necessary to delete a rather lengthy post, and terminate the membership of the individual who made it. Not because that individual was a recurrent troublemaker -- only one post -- or because of the content of said post. The reason was that the poster used a fake name -- blatantly so. And we have a rule about that, don't we. No exceptions.
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Topic Closed)
