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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132599
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 1
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It seems to me that either a fetus is a human being or it isn't.•• I don't think there can be any debate. A fetus is a human being from the moment of conception. What else could it be? An Aardvark? I think we Pro-Choice folk damage our case, in fact, when we start getting silly about what defines a human being. If the fetus is "incomplete," say only three months along, is that really different from a full term baby who is born without arms? Abortion should be viewed as what it is: justifiable homicide.* __________ * The argument becomes even more absurd when we do our homework. Studies have shown that some 70 percent of sexually active women are pregnant THREE TIMES in their lives without even knowing it!
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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 2
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I'm Catholic and a Conservative. But this goes beyond any
belief I have, as a person of faith.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15875
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 3
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A fetus is a human being from the moment of conception. What else could it be? An Aardvark?--------------------------- Fetus is quite a specific word in terms of development, but not a very specific word in terms of species.
A fetus could be an aardvark.
A human fetus can only be human.
If a fertilised human egg was immediately a fetus we wouldn't need the word embryo.
At the moment of conception we are talking about a single cell with the potential to be a human being (or more than one human being). Others may disagree, but I would say if that cell spontaneously aborts the next day, no one has died.
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Benny Hasa
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2011
Posts: 724
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 4
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I try to stay away from the politics on this board as it can get heated, but I think I'll comment on this one. I think that the sentence was harsh, but throwing a fetus in a dumpster is still pretty disgusting. I mean really? She should have owned up to her choice and dealt with it before this became an option for her.
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Ryan Maxwell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12944
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 5
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My wife had two early miscarriages in the first few years of our
marriage, around week 6 or so. Both pregnancies had been confirmed
by her OB. Both were lost in the bathroom, while I stood locked out on
the other side of the door listening to her sob. I can attest that she, at
least, was an emotional wreck for a few days after, and probably (even
I can't say for sure) wasn't in her right mind during that time. Not even
adding fear to the mix, I'd say this woman needed help, not a
courtroom.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132599
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 6
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Fetus is quite a specific word in terms of development, but not a very specific word in terms of species.A fetus could be an aardvark. A human fetus can only be human. If a fertilised human egg was immediately a fetus we wouldn't need the word embryo. At the moment of conception we are talking about a single cell with the potential to be a human being (or more than one human being). Others may disagree, but I would say if that cell spontaneously aborts the next day, no one has died. •• A fetus is the unborn offspring of a mammal, particularly a human being. The moment you turn this in a game of words, all sense is lost. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HUMAN BABIES. There is no reason to waste time on specifying this in each instance. And "potential" is such a cowardly word. It is absurd to talk about the "potential" of something when it CANNOT BE ANYTHING ELSE.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132599
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 7
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I think that the sentence was harsh, but throwing a fetus in a dumpster is still pretty disgusting. I mean really? She should have owned up to her choice and dealt with it before this became an option for her. •• I had no idea you were a woman.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 3:37pm | IP Logged | 8
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I think that the sentence was harsh, but throwing a
fetus in a dumpster is still pretty disgusting. I mean
really? She should have owned up to her choice and dealt
with it before this became an option for her.
****
SER: You'd also need to prove that the woman even knew
she was pregnant in time to "own up to her choice"
before she suffered what she claimed was a miscarriage.
And if terminating a pregnancy is legal, I'm not sure
what crime she committed even if she was lying about its
being a miscarriage.
That aside, what especially galls me is that I read
stories on an alarmingly regular basis where idiots keep
their loaded guns within reach of a child who then kills
himself or someone else, often another child, and the
idiots are never charged. It's just considered an
"accident" with no one in the DA's office claiming this
gun owner should "own up" to his or her choice to keep a
lethal weapon in their house.
I have a 13-month-old son, and when I read this story, I
thought of the situations where something tragic could
happen to him through my own incompetence (the above or
even a traffic accident that's entirely my fault) and I
would never be charged with a serious crime or if I
were, it would never be as severe as this woman
received.
She was treated as if she committed cold-blooded,
premeditated murder, which I think is how too many
people view abortion in the first place, which I think
is the root of the problem when discussing the issue.
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Benny Hasa
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2011
Posts: 724
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 9
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I had no idea you were a woman.
****
I'm pretty sure no one in here discussing this topic is a woman, so by that logic nobody can say anything that merits consideration.
I'm all for abortion, and I without a doubt think this charge was absurd, but are people really justifying why it's OK for her to discard her baby in a dumpster? What if she fed it to the local stray dog? Is that any better or worse? She had plenty of options available to her that didn't include throwing it in the trash. Doesn't matter if I'm a woman or not. Disgusting is disgusting, and this is disgusting. Do I think she should go to jail for it? Of course not. Do I think we should be able to discuss this without having to be asked if we are a woman. Absolutely.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14827
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | 10
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No one is saying it's OK to be dumping babies in dumpsters. What I am saying is that 1) women are still being subjected to the ridiculous stigma of having a child out of wedlock, 2) pregnancy is emotionally rough time for women, both to psychological and biological factors, and 3) miscarriage is a traumatic event, so I can sympathize with someone dealing with that frame of mind when she doesn't make the best choice. It's a sad event, not a "disgusting" one.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 01 April 2015 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 11
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I'm all for abortion, and I without a doubt think this
charge was absurd, but are people really justifying why
it's OK for her to discard her baby in a dumpster? What
if she fed it to the local stray dog? Is that any better
or worse? She had plenty of options available to her
that didn't include throwing it in the trash. Doesn't
matter if I'm a woman or not. Disgusting is disgusting,
and this is disgusting. Do I think she should go to jail
for it? Of course not. Do I think we should be able to
discuss this without having to be asked if we are a
woman. Absolutely.
*********
SER: I suppose I look at it from the angle that I would
comment on someone's personal choices if I believed it
rose to the level of a crime because all of society has
a stake in condemning criminal acts. But if I don't
think it's a crime, then it seems callous to criticize
the decisions of someone whose situation we fully don't
understand.
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Marc M. Woolman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2096
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| Posted: 02 April 2015 at 12:40am | IP Logged | 12
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Is this conviction not an example of a case somebody
like the ACLU could appeal to the supreme court? How can
this conviction possibly stand? Abortion is not illegal,
the mother didn't cause her own abortion, what exactly
is the crime?
Edited by Marc M. Woolman on 02 April 2015 at 12:40am
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