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Tony Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 June 2012
Posts: 33
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 1
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Stephen,
Require that gun owners demonstrate purchase of a gun safe prior to obtaining a weapon. But seriously, while this is indeed a TRAGIC loss of life, the person who is to blame is the adult who didn't lock the gun up in a safe place. And they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law to both punish their obvious incompetence and serve as a warning to any other idiots who think it's a good idea to store a gun in a place where anyone but the registered owner has access. How many children die or are seriously injured because the parent didn't store their prescription medication and the kid thought it was candy?
And before anyone jumps in and says that it's statistically insignificant. Between 2004 and 2005, an estimated 71,000 children (18 or younger) were seen in emergency rooms each year because of medication overdose - those figures do NOT include self-harm, abuse and recreational drug use. Among children under age 6, pharmaceuticals account for about 40% of all exposures reported to poison centers. Should we require that people report to a doctors office to take their pills because some people can't store them properly?
Manufacturers of antifreeze were required to add a bitter agent to their products because idiot adults were storing it in such a way that enough kids got access to (and apparently thinking it was Gatorade or Kool-Aid)tried drinking it.
Most gun manufacturers have complied with regulations regarding safeties and there are numerous devices which are available to purchase.
Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL6c-30SPfg
Can we protect against all aspects of human stupidity, no but then should we forbid ladders because some people think it's okay stand on the parts where it clearly says "not a step".
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Shaun Barry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6904
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | 2
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Can we protect against all aspects of human stupidity, no but then should we forbid ladders because some people think it's okay stand on the parts where it clearly says "not a step".
Tony! You accuse others here of straw man arguments, but then you post this?! Yeesh.
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Tony Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 June 2012
Posts: 33
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 3
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"No, you are inappropriately taking offense on behalf of them. Different thing."
Because it's inconceivable that I should not only know gun owners but consider many of them friends and know the extent to which they go to make sure that they keep them locked up and out of the reach of anyone but themselves? And that I should take not take offense when people like Mr. Ghazi - who does not know them - claims that they're love of guns trumps their concern for their fellow humans.
Meanwhile, hey let's show our respect for life by wistfully suggesting that someone would change their tune if someone they loved got killed.... As someone whose loved one actually WAS killed by a someone with a gun and whose opinion on gun control did not change... that really resonated with me.
Do I get to take offense at that one?
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Shaun Barry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6904
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 4
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(Agreed on that one, Tony. Not wild about Brian's post in that regard.)
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Tony Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 June 2012
Posts: 33
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | 5
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In all these situations, guns provoke conflict, escalate it to the point that inevitably someone fires and someone is dead. Where will it end? ...
The fact that you honestly believe that the vast majority of responsible gun owners even remotely falls into this category speaks to your bias.
Should I be more offended because my brother was killed by gun, rather than someone just beating him to death? Is it your contention that his death is more tragic in the former case?
How about we ban cars because the idiot that shouted in the parking lot decided to chase the other person down the road and caused an accident that killed three people? Or maybe it's more okay if he just nearly killed three other people - after all he has a sacred right to operate a motor vehicle because a car wasn't designed to harm people.
Or maybe you think that since we clearly can't trust people to operate something as dangerous as a motor vehicle if they can't control their own temper we should ban private ownership of cars - everyone take a bus (though that might not be a good idea - I've seen the way some bus drivers drive! :-)).
Should such a person own a gun? Hell no. But I don't think he should be allowed to legally drive a car either. So when the authorities show up to take his license, they take his guns (if he has any) too. And while he *may* get his drivers license back - he NEVER gets his guns back.
Of course the point is somewhat moot because the government can't even keep people who have revoked or suspended licenses from continually operating motor vehicles.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865590413/Man-driving-on- suspended-license-caused-5-car-accident-police-say.html?pg=a ll
http://www.dailypress.net/page/content.detail/id/547149/Jury -weighs-verdict-on-fatal-crash.html?nav=5003
An arrest blotter From April 14-22. Note the number of people arrested for driving under the influence or under a suspended or revoked license.
http://www.sapulpaheraldonline.com/articles/2014/04/25/news/ doc53594c63bee79259770346.txt
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Tony Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 June 2012
Posts: 33
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 6
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Shaun, the argument had to do with a death because someone didn't properly store their firearm which is NEGLIGENCE. Should I be less offended at the death by a parents negligence if a kid in their charge is killed because they let them play on a ladder? Or didn't store their prescription medication properly? Or didn't secure their Rottweiler? Should the adult be less culpable in such cases?
Negligence that leads to the death of child should be punished, the fact of whether it involved a gun that the parent didn't lock up or the parent let the kids play in the garage and they ended up drinking anti-freeze that the parent didn't store safely or the kids got into the parents prescription medication is irrelevant ... a child is still dead. And that is a tragedy no matter how it happened.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 7
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Negligence that leads to the death of child should be punished, the fact
of whether it involved a gun that the parent didn't lock up or the parent
let the kids play in the garage and they ended up drinking anti-freeze
that the parent didn't store safely or the kids got into the parents
prescription medication is irrelevant ... a child is still dead. And that is a
tragedy no matter how it happened.
***
SER: No parent, even if it was a good thing to do, could create a world
where a child never was in a situation that might lead to a tragic
accident. However, it's not that difficult to avoid a situation in which your
child is killed playing with a gun. Don't have a gun in your house.
I will never have a gun in the house with my son. Statistically, he's far
less likely to die in the mythical home invasion by gun might prevent
than he would by him or someone else finding and using the gun.
Having guns in the house is not "negligence." It's not an accident. It is a
deliberate choice. But continue comparing using a gun as it was
designed (to kill someone) to using anti-freeze incorrectly (drinking it).
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35940
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | 8
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Let's stay on the topic of guns and gun legislation instead of throwing up smoke screens about accidental death by shower curtain or cases of a kid dying by swallowing anti-freeze. That's the discussion that started this thread and that's the discussion we should be having. In that light, tell me one, just one, regulation that the NRA has allowed to pass without raising the slightest objection.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 9
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Wasting your time, Matt. Gun fetishists will not allow reason or logic (or the murder of children) to intrude upon their Holy of Holies. What seems utterly insane to any thinking person, they can twist in a thousand ways to suit their agenda. You simple cannot preach common sense to people for whom the deaths of tens of thousands EVERY YEAR is accepted as a fair price to pay.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 26 April 2014 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 10
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Tony Smith wrote:
| And that I should take not take offense when people like Mr. Ghazi - who does not know them - claims that they're love of guns trumps their concern for their fellow humans. |
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I don't need to know them. Their actions speak to their concerns. There are plenty of viable alternatives to owning a gun, many of them non-lethal, as I've detailed. Only someone who actually idolizes guns, considers them to be cool and something that gives the owner a feeling a power - "gun fetishists" as JB calls them - would continue to argue that owning a gun is an inalienable right.
I live in a country that was founded by convicts, where being irreverent and defying authority is still a way of life in many respects. Yet we managed to ban guns (a law introduced by a conservative government no less), and as a result our gun crime rate is down to 1.06 deaths per 100,000 compared to 10.3 per 100,000 in the US. If we can do it, so can you guys. And as I said, there are still plenty of much safer, viable alternatives for home defense, so you needn't feel that your families are left defenseless just because you no longer have a weapon that can spit out 600 rounds per minute.
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Craig Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 1756
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| Posted: 27 April 2014 at 5:32am | IP Logged | 11
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Here in the Indy City, the NRA is doing whatever they do when they convene in the very same week that the DNC asked us to bid for host city of the 2016 Democratic National Convention and we, as a state, said... "uh, sorry... we're busy that week." To add to the hilarity (or rather, shitheel-ness), the very arguments used about NOT hosting DemCon are completely contradicted by our effort to host another Superbowl. I guess you can't use the same hotels and restaurants for Democrats that you use for GenCon, NCAA, the Brickyard, the Indy 500, the Superbowl, the FFA and what not. My wife and I are seriously considering moving to Oregon once Alex graduates high school in a couple years. Mount Hood, from a distance, while squinting, looks just enough like Erebor to satisfy my Tolkien itch...
Edited by Craig Robinson on 27 April 2014 at 5:34am
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Randy Lahey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 January 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 675
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| Posted: 27 April 2014 at 5:51am | IP Logged | 12
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Koroush, what was the gun deaths before they were banned? Is it a total gun ban or just certain types of guns? Are tasers legal in Austrailia?
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Topic Closed)
