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Bill Sandefur Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 August 2013 Location: United States Posts: 118
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Posted: 14 September 2013 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 1
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I have no problem with the actual subject matter, it just seems an odd choice for a test of sequential art storytelling. It's really just 4 pin-ups of Harley in different comical life-threatening situations. While it might prove a decent test of artistic ability, it's not a good test of story-telling prowess, IMO.
But then again, I find today's comics aren't so much about telling a good and entertaining story, as they are about creating a buzz through shock and awe.
However, I am curious to see how different artists are going to depict those 4 scenes. For example, I think showing Harley in a whale's mouth, tickling him with a feather, is going to pretty challenging to convey in one small panel.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132674
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Posted: 14 September 2013 at 11:27am | IP Logged | 2
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I have no problem with the actual subject matter, it just seems an odd choice for a test of sequential art storytelling. •• Problem is, since virtually everything is written full script these days, DC doesn't WANT artists with a gift for sequential storytelling. DC wants artists that DO what they're TOLD.
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Ed Love Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2712
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Posted: 14 September 2013 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 3
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I don't have a problem with the material per se, but in the larger context. By itself, sure, it's dark humor, in character with the tone of the character and book, etc. But, in the wider landscape, it's indicative of issues that DC has had and doesn't seem to recognize.
DC has an image problem with its portrayal of women and minorities, it's one of their comics that gave rise to the expression of "women in refrigerators" and they don't seem to see it. Almost every one of their Nu52 titles that prominently featured or starred a woman character sexualized her, showed her and/or another female in stages of undress. Harley herself underwent a gritty overtly sexual makeover with the relaunch.
This is a publicity stunt as much as it is anything, and THIS is the image that DC is presenting to the public. Not inviting them to draw Superman, Wonder Woman or Batman fighting some bad-guys or doing some super stunts, but to draw someone thinking about suicide and naked (even if the naughty bits are covered). You have to question what this says about DC Comics and management, this is what they want to put forward. It's about as well thought out as the idea as a "WTF?" month
And, apologizing without actually addressing or recognizing the problems or trying to rectify it? Frankly, that's as sincere an apology as saying, "I'm sorry that you're stupid"
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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5819
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Posted: 14 September 2013 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 4
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So, yes, many people were and continue to be offended by those old WB cartoons.
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My Looney Tunes Golden Collection DVDs have "Is Intended for the Adult Collector and May Not Be Appropriate for Children" written across the backs of their cases. Makes it sound like I'm buying porn or something.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132674
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Posted: 14 September 2013 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 5
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My Looney Tunes Golden Collection DVDs have "Is Intended for the Adult Collector and May Not Be Appropriate for Children" written across the backs of their cases. Makes it sound like I'm buying porn or something. •• Think of it as educational. WB cartoons, and those from other studios, used to run with feature fims, along with newsreels and travelogs and other ADULT fare. "Adult" in the old sense, as in "for grown-up", not "adult" as in puerile. When WB started showing the cartoons on TV, they packaged them for adults, and they were run in Prime Time. Overture, curtain, lights! Somewhere along the way, the Idiot Squad started complaining about what was being shown to CHILDREN (not the intended audience) and, much like had happened with comics a decade earlier, the studios backed down, and started editing the product to make it "kid friendly" So, now the old cartoons are being released in their original forms, people need to be reminded who was the intended audience of those original forms. -------- Mini Milestone: 89,000
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Johan Vikberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2009 Location: Sweden Posts: 188
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Posted: 15 September 2013 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | 6
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DC has an image problem with its portrayal of women and minorities, it’s one of their comics that gave rise to the expression of “women in refrigerators” and they don’t seem to see it.
They seem to not see it as an image problem and target consumers who also don’t see it as any kind of problem.
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Anthony J Lombardi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 9410
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Posted: 15 September 2013 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | 7
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DC has an image problem with its portrayal of women and minorities ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I haven't read a DC title in years. How exactly are they portraying women and minorities that's so wrong?..... “women in refrigerators” ~~~ Obviously a reference to Kyle Rayner's dead girlfriend. The incident was an attempt at creating an Uncle Ben for Rayner.
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Jeffrey Rice Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1161
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Posted: 15 September 2013 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | 8
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DC has apologized for the images in the trial page.
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Carmen Bernardo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 3666
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 4:48am | IP Logged | 9
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Per Anthony's statement, I recall reading about this back in the day. Having never followed Green Lantern comics, I wasn't about to do it then because of all the crossover junk (COIE, ED, etc). The idea was a bit over the top, in my distant point of view, but this was all post-DKR.
I was aware of an apology, but I didn't know that they had already posted images. Must've struck a nerve to get them to respond so quickly. I wonder if some people took those script instructions quite literally.
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4560
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 10
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I remember that old Marvel tryout you could send off for back in the 80's. I think it would have been even more successful if, after being accepted as a finalist, you got a personal call from Jim Shooter who would then proceed to yell at you for getting it all wrong and demand that you redraw several key pages.
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Ed Love Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2712
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 7:48am | IP Logged | 11
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“women in refrigerators” ~~~ Obviously a reference to Kyle Rayner's dead girlfriend. The incident was an attempt at creating an Uncle Ben for Rayner.
That may have been the "attempt" but the result sparked a meme and protest of how female characters were treated in comics, going from being damsels to be rescued to being murdered, tortured, etc for drama and presented in somewhat graphic ways. We don't see her actually being killed but it's still done in a way to shock and outrage. And, in the process takes a super-villain into darker territory that is difficult to move the character beyond. She became the poster-child for the fates of characters like Gwen Stacey (death), Mera (insane), Kathy Kane (death), Tula (death), Lori Lemaris (death), Supergirl (death), Barbara Gordon (crippled), Black Canary (tortured, possibly raped in "Longbow Hunters" didn't read the mini, so not really sure how far it went, but she lost her sonic scream as a result). ====================== DC has an image problem with its portrayal of women and minorities ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I haven't read a DC title in years. How exactly are they portraying women and minorities that's so wrong?\
Mind you, I think DC has a problem with how it treats many of their characters. How many minority characters are created as knock-offs of caucasian male characters, who are often killed off? Former heroes turned into mass murdering super-villains? Green Arrow who was in a committed relationship longer than most heroes turned into a philanderer who cannot resist any woman that comes on to him and will even sleep with a team mate's wife. But, even before Nu52, you had Identity Crisis that took Sue Dibney, a supporting character that actually had been used prominently in the Giffen and DeMatteis Justice League years, turned her not only into a rape victim, but then murdered by another long supporting female character all in an attempt to win back her ex-husband. There was Hal Jordan telling Oliver Queen about a threesome he had with a female superhero. Artistically, Birds of Prey, a book featuring strong female characters, to one that featured quite a bit of cheesecake. Mary Marvel going dark and into bondage attire. After Nu52, you had in the first issues, thus setting the tone... Voodoo working in a strip club (for sake of story, this could have easily been any bar, restaurant, etc), we find out Wonder Woman sleeps in the buff and helps a woman who's in her underwear and there's just not enough time to get her covered up over a couple of issues, Batwoman and Bette Kane have a nice heart to heart conversation while getting dressed so you get to see them in their underwear, Starfire's feats of strength are done off camera but you have space enough to find out she's now a slut who will sleep with any of her team-mates, the change of outfits for Harley. Keep in mind that comics featuring or starring male heroes outnumber those about 3 to 1. However, there are not comparable scenes with Grifter working for Chippendale dancers, Superman sleeping in the buff and then flying around with a half naked attractive looking man for a couple of issues, Batman and Robin walking around and discussing things while posing for the reader in stages of undress, etc. It's treating female characters as objects of voyeurism, even when trying to seem progressive. DC absorbed Milestone, but other than Static, there hasn't been sign of the characters used in prominent ways since the relaunch. Yet, we have various Wildstorm characters and concepts popping up in different places. Where's Hardware, Icon and Rocket, Xombi, Shadow Cabinet, etc? So, this stunt doesn't strike me so much as keeping in character with the character involved, but keeping in character with the pattern of behavior that DC has had, especially since Didio has headed them up.
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Greg Woronchak Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1631
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 12
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DC wants artists that DO what they're TOLD.
When I was young, my goal was to 'break in' to the Big Two because I thought a comic book bullpen must be a wildly creative and magical place to be.
Reading about marketing departments dictating content (and designs), full scripts by Hollywood wannabes, and rampant editorial interference sure is depressing (sigh).
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