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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133558
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 1
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All Kirby did was co-create most of the Marvel universe. Why the hell should he have been treated better than everybody else? For that matter, why should Stan Lee? If this is such an important point, why did Kirby run his own company the same as early Marvel? No credits, no royalties, no return of artwork? To my mind, the defense of Kirby stumbles very badly on that point.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133558
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 2
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If corporations are to be treated like people
Corporations are NOT treated like people. The whole uproar over the return of Kirby's art, for instance, happened because the LAW CHANGED. The Constitution of the United States forbids this kind of retroactive law making -- if tomorrow it becomes illegal to wear a blue sweater, you cannot be arrested for wearing a blue sweater yesterday -- but corporations enjoy no such protection. The families of Seigel and Shuster contesting with DC over ownership of Superman springs also from changing laws.
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Donald Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 3601
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 3
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The families of Seigel and Shuster contesting with DC over ownership of by CouponDropDown">Superman springs also from changing laws.
Good point. Imagine a world where copyrights actually expire in a reasonable amount of time. While the rest of the world has seen an annual pilgrimage of their cultural heritage into the public domain, we Americans have had no such changes since the 1970's nor will we until 2019.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3117
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 4
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According to Roz Kirby, she personally returned original artwork from Kirby's company. As for the rest, Kirby ran his company by the standards of the time. When Marvel held his art hostage, it was contrary to the standards of the time.
What about Stan Lee being treated so much better than Kirby and everybody else? In my mind, any defense of Marvel stumbles on that point.
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Donald Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 3601
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 5
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As far as the Golden/Silver/Bronze age goes...I had never considered the interpretation as you have JB. This makes me think of it in different terms.
I think I will now just refer to them in loose decade designations.
Thanks.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3117
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:21am | IP Logged | 6
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I've only read one of the two or three comics Kirby published, and I don't remember any credits, not even for Jack. Certainly nothing like "JACK KIRBY PRESENTS!!!"
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Laren Farmer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 975
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 7
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Let's see...editor-in-chief who was a constant cheerleader for Marvel and stays with the company...is treated better than writer/artist who leaves to work elsewhere.. Yes...no company would ever be act in such a manner.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133558
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 8
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According to Roz Kirby, she personally returned original artwork from Kirby's company. As for the rest, Kirby ran his company by the standards of the time. When Marvel held his art hostage, it was contrary to the standards of the time. People I have talked to who worked for Kirby, have different memories than did Roz. Take that for what you will. Since return of artwork did not become common until the Seventies, I am inclined to doubt. As to Kirby's art being "held hostage" -- not at all. What was happening "contrary to the standards of the time" was that Kirby (or his lawyers) were insisting return of artwork implied relinquishing of ownership. Which was VERY "contrary to the standards of the time". The artwork COULD NOT be released under those "conditions". Perhaps you need to be reminded that Steve Ditko signed the appropriate paperwork, and all his artwork (that survived, or had not been stolen) was returned.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133558
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 9
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I've only read one of the two or three comics Kirby published, and I don't remember any credits, not even for Jack. Certainly nothing like "JACK KIRBY PRESENTS!!!" Years ago, Peter Sanderson wondered what would have happened if Stan had left and Jack had stayed. Who would then be "Good Marvel Daddy" and who would be "Bad Marvel Daddy"? If Kirby had stayed, do you really imagine he would have been meek and unassuming in his role as EiC? That the books published under his watch would NOT bear something akin to "JACK KIRBY PRESENTS"? This is the guy who tried to claim creation of Spider-Man as all his own, remember. (Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with STAN LEE PRESENTS on the books. As Editor in Chief and later Publisher, what was he doing, if not "presenting" these tales?)
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Laren Farmer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 975
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 10
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Criticzing Stan for "STAN LEE PRESENTS..." is like criticizing....oh it's just too stupid. As already pointed out...Stan was the guy who gave Jack and others credit for all they did. And his reward for that is for some people today to say Stan did nothing creatively and stole the credit from others.
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Clifford Boudreaux Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2012 Posts: 443
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 11
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The families of Seigel and Shuster contesting with DC over ownership of Superman springs also from changing laws.
A law the corporations wanted. Otherwise Superman and Batman would be in the public domain.
They got everything S&S signed away to them (the original agreements were honored in full)... then changed the laws to get more.
They only ever bought the copyright for 56 years. Anything past that is not in the original agreement.
Edited by Clifford Boudreaux on 11 January 2013 at 11:20am
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3117
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Posted: 11 January 2013 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 12
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People I have talked to who worked for Kirby, have different memories than did Roz. Take that for what you will. Since return of artwork did not become common until the Seventies, I am inclined to doubt. As to Kirby's art being "held hostage" -- not at all. What was happening "contrary to the standards of the time" was that Kirby (or his lawyers) were insisting return of artwork implied relinquishing of ownership. Which was VERY "contrary to the standards of the time". The artwork COULD NOT be released under those "conditions". Perhaps you need to be reminded that Steve Ditko signed the appropriate paperwork, and all his artwork (that survived, or had not been stolen) was returned. +++ Kirby insisted at the time that it was Marvel who kept bringing up the ownership issue in regards to the art return. Kirby was willing to sign the same release as everyone else, and in fact had signed the same release when he returned to Marvel in the Seventies. He objected to Marvel's insistence on an expanded release. He rightly believed the issues of credit and ownership were separate from the return of what was legally his property. It wasn't a case of wanting to be treated better and I don't think he can be blamed for not wanting to be treated worse. Do you know if Ditko signed a standard release, or an expanded version?
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