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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133555
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| Posted: 10 January 2013 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 1
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I agree with Matt. Decades are a pretty good way of cataloging the "eras" -- as long as we remember that, just like the real decades, when we say, for instance, "The Sixties", we don't necessarily mean 1960-1969. Sometimes we mean more, sometimes less.Unfortunately, terms like "Golden Age" and "Silver Age" have become ways for many a know-nothing fan to try to sound "smart". Referring to decades would require some actual awareness of history. "Ages" are much less specific. (Ask somebody to tell you when the Silver Age began -- or ended!)
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Fred J Chamberlain
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4044
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| Posted: 10 January 2013 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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I'D never considered the value or placement judgments prior to your
response. Definitely something to be more aware of when talking
comics.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 10 January 2013 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 3
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The problem has been there since the first time someone called the early days "The Golden Age". It's pretty simple math: if THIS is "The Golden Age", then THAT isn't! And if we insist on making a "gold standard", anything NOT "gold" is lessened.I started working to get into comics in the early Seventies, and immediately became frustrated by those around me who insisted on pigeonholing whole epochs, and on a downward slope. There I was, looking at Kirby, Neal Adams, Joe Kubert, Curt Swan, Walt SImonson, Berni Wrightson, Mike Kaluta, John Buscema and a host of others, and being told they were runners up. That the BEST was behind us. BAH!!!
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 10 January 2013 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 4
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Hey, art classifications could work for comics: Classical (1940-50s), Renaissance (60-70s), Modern (80s-90s).
Not sure what to call the last 20 years (well, I have some terms, but I should hold back <g>)....
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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
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| Posted: 10 January 2013 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | 5
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I get the feeling that the "gold/silver/bronze" appellations have a lot to do with how well comics sold during each era, so it does seem to have a very economic slant to it.
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Brian Skelley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 231
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| Posted: 10 January 2013 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | 6
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John Byrne wrote:
| In fact, it's well known that Kirby was often not happy with how Stan scripted the books, sometimes telling a very different story from the one Kirby plotted. (I had similar problems with Claremont.) |
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I can imagine how frustrating that could be at times, but were there times where it worked out better?Sorry if you've answered it before, I didn't find it.
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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 10 January 2013 at 7:55pm | IP Logged | 7
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I've long realized that to single out Stan for Kirby's mistreatment by Marvel is wrongheaded. The corporate idiots at the time where the ones that treated Kirby like that and would have regardless of who the writer was. One thing that I'd like to know more about is the position Stan offered to get for Kirby as art director. This seems to be something that's never mentioned by detractors of Lee. I believe that this was the same position that Romita eventually held.
As far as the creation goes, I highly doubt that Stan ever came up with a character on his own, or at all. The design and conception of the characters obviously came Kirby and Ditko. What Stan DID add was a great gift for dialog and a gift for making the characters likable, skills that Kirby and Ditko didn't have, at least not to the same extent. I love Kirby's Fourth World, but his dialog is extremely clunky compared to Lee's during their Marvel years.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4649
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| Posted: 10 January 2013 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | 8
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I'm curious when Stan's offer to make Kirby art director occurred... in interviews with Stan he hasn't made that clear. It seems like it would have had to be either around the time Goodman was selling the company to Perfect Film, or right after that. I'm skeptical that Goodman would have authorized the creation of a staff position for Kirby when he was in charge, since he was a notorious penny pincher and reportedly on one occasion told Kirby to draw less panels per page rather than giving him a raise.
The sale to Perfect Film happened in autumn 1968, at which time Kirby would have already been planning his move to California (he moved in December of that year). So it may be that the offer came too late for Kirby to accept without cancelling his move, or that he was afraid to accept the offer given things being in flux and the uncertainty of a new corporation taking over. As things wound up, no one was made art director at that point. Stan held the title until 1972, and it wasn't until 1972 that a separate art director (first Frank Giacoia, and then later Romita) was hired.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 11 January 2013 at 5:46am | IP Logged | 9
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I've long realized that to single out Stan for Kirby's mistreatment by Marvel is wrongheaded.•• It's also "wrongheaded" to think of Kirby as being "mistreated" -- unless you think EVERYBODY, including Stan, was "mistreated". The Kirby supporters have not been eager to see Jack treated "fairly". They want him treated BETTER than everybody else.
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David Miller
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| Posted: 11 January 2013 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 10
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All Kirby did was co-create most of the Marvel universe. Why the hell should he have been treated better than everybody else? For that matter, why should Stan Lee?
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Shawn Kane
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Joined: 04 November 2010
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11 January 2013 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 11
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I love Jack Kirby and agree that he co-created most of the Marvel Universe but Dave Cockrum co-created most of the All-New All-Different X-Men, Marvel's biggest title for a long time. What about him? You could argue that he was mistreated by Marvel as much as Kirby. I think the argument could be made that alot of creators were "mistreated" by Marvel by today's standards. But today is different from yesterday when those creators were getting paid to do a job not thinking about royalties or credit. I wish that the people who created the Marvel Universe that we know and love could become rich from their creations. In a perfect world everyone that saw the Avengers movie (or any other Marvel movie) would know of Jack Kirby's contributions. I know that I'd much rather people know of what he (and the other true architects of Marvel) did and give less credit to Quesada, Bendis, Millar, Brevoort, and Brubaker for the movies.
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Clifford Boudreaux
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| Posted: 11 January 2013 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 12
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All Kirby did was co-create most of the Marvel universe. Why the hell should he have been treated better than everybody else? For that matter, why should Stan Lee?
Simple decency?
While the companies are under no legal obligations to do right by the people whose work they continue to strip-mine, there are still moral and ethical obligations.
If corporations are to be treated like people, then I'm going to treat them like the assholes they've proven themselves to be.
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