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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133571
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 3:32am | IP Logged | 1
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…it depends upon your point of view. Many believers of woo believe that being psychic is a natural ability…•• And they're wrong. There is not an iota of reliable evidence supporting the ACTUAL existence of "psychic abilities" in the real world. People have spent THOUSANDS of years trying to prove they exist, without success. While the rest of Nature has slowly been revealed, while real, measurable reasons for so much that used to be considered "magic" have been uncovered, "psychic powers" remain completely imaginary. This is not about a "point of view".
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Glen Keith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010 Location: United States Posts: 851
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 4:02am | IP Logged | 2
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I didn't say I agreed with that point of view, just that those who do would argue "that there is another side to the issue." Please don't think I am endorsing their side, or that I am some kind of post-modern relativist. I was just trying to explain why someone who does believe in paranormal powers, like Moore, might be able to justify saying that only Dr. Manhattan possess superpowers in a book riddled with psychics.
I know it's all a bunch of crap.
Edited by Glen Keith on 30 May 2012 at 4:22am
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Paul Greer Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 18 August 2004 Posts: 14190
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 3
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To me, Watchmen was never about the mystery of who killed the Comedian. It was about the journey of discovering who the characters were/are. Your milage may vary on how well you enjoyed that aspect of the book, however, I think it works well as a self contained story. Before Watchmen seems to be a series of mini-series that just expands on an already told story. Moore/Gibbons laid out everything you needed to know about the characters in the 12 issues of Watchmen and did so in a concise way. I am very skeptical that they will cover any new ground in these new mini-series and instead just naval-gaze upon what we already know. It seems DC has missed the point of what Watchmen was about if all they do is expand on backstories that were already told. Having said that, the art teams alone have me interested in reading these books. Adam Hughes, Jae Lee, Lee Bermejo, JG Jones, Adam/Joe Kubert, Amanda Connor and Darwyn Cooke are some mighty talented artists. These will be some wonderfully drawn books at the very least. I'm hoping DC surprises me with something different, but I highly doubt they will.
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Neil Brauer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 February 2012 Location: United States Posts: 714
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 7:25am | IP Logged | 4
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I hate to agree with Morrison, but I hope they can get thru these issues without a friggin rape in every storyline. That shit makes me uncomfortable.
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Craig Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 1756
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 8:04am | IP Logged | 5
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Well, as to the topic title, the worst comic I've ever read that you couldn't pay me to read again: Jeph Loeb's ULTIMATUM. Re. Pre-Watchman. I'll for certain buy Cooke's MINUTEMEN book to support Cooke. If the art is really good for Comedian and Rorschach books I'll at least try them out. I have no objection to the pre-Watchmen projects. I just hope they are worth all the hot fuss people are making.
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Shawn Kane Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 3239
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 6
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I was a Watchmen fan in the 10th grade (88-89) when I read it. I gradually grew tired of it when fans declared that it was superior to regular comic books that I enjoyed. Sure it was a good read but I preferred JB's Fantastic Four, Claremont's X-Men, Stern's Avengers, and Simonson's Thor to Watchmen. Other than that Moore's writing doesn't appeal to me. As far as the WSJ article goes, I don't disagree with much of it. The tone may have been harsh but it's interesting how he calls out Joe Q, Bendis, DIdio, and Grant Morrison by name. Those are four guys that I blame for much of what has changed (as far as my tastes go) in comics. Quesada tried his best to be the Howard Stern of comics with Bill Jemas and as far as I'm concerned really has done more bad than good at Marvel. Bendis has far too much control of the current Marvel characters and they all read the same way to me. His characters feel like "I think it would be cool if Hawkeye would do this even though it's not in character, it'll make my story better". Didio's reign at DC has darkened their comics, it seems that death and other dark elements are more important to him than a good story. I can read Morrison at times but more often than not I just have a puzzeled look on my face after I read one of his stories. I personally would throw Mark Millar and his fascinations with anti-heroes and rape into the mix.
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David Ferguson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 6782
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 7
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I liked some of the storytelling techniques that Moore used. They probably weren't original but I read Watchmen at the stage I was starting to notice these things. I think it also benefited from my having no prior knowledge of the Charlton characters.
(I always thought that V for Vendetta was a better story).
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Eric Smearman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 5839
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | 8
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Darwin Cooke's MINUTEMEN is the only one of these books that interests me and I'm still not sure I'll get it.
"Jeph Loeb's ULTIMATUM."
I've read some stuff by Loeb that I really enjoyed (SUPERMAN FOR ALL SEASONS springs to mind.) but this was just startlingly, bafflingly bad. Three issues in with no sign of it getting any better, I not only dropped it but tossed the issues I had in the trash. Despite my best efforts, I have yet to be able to block it out of my memory.
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Shawn Kane Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 3239
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 9
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Loeb seems to borrow a page from the Millar handbook these days: Over the Top Everything Shock Value. I could never picture Millar writing the kind of stuff that Loeb has done with Tim Sale so Loeb at least has the ability to write good comics.
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Arc Carlton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 April 2009 Location: Peru Posts: 3493
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 10
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I've raised the question before, without seeing a satisfactory answer: has Moore actually created anything that was entirely his own? Not being snarky here, I promise. (After all, I make no claims to being Captain Originality!) ____________________________________ Well, he wrote The Ballad of Halo Jones for 2000AD (and that wasn't based on preexisting characters or anything).
D.R. & Quinch for 2000AD (wasn't based on preexisting characters either), the same happens with Skizz for 2000AD. He also wrote TOP TEN (another original creation). And he has written many Tharg's Future Shocks or Time Twisters that would count as original works.
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Ian Penman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 469
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 11
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Maxwell The Magic Cat.
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Glen Keith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010 Location: United States Posts: 851
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Posted: 30 May 2012 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 12
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It's difficult to say how much of Skizz is original. The legend goes that news of an alien-trapped-on-earth movie being made had been circulating through the 2000 AD offices, and the editors tapped Moore to write a version. It seems to be unclear just how much Moore knew about the plot of E.T. as he was writing his take on the subject, but once the movie was released it certainly did influence his tale (including a few direct refferences to it). But what does seem certain is that if it wasn't for E.T., we wouldn't have had Skizz.
In a way, you could say Skizz was a precursor to the Asylum's preemptive rip-offs like Transmorphers or Snakes on a Train.
I would agree that TOP 10 was fairly original (and one of the better series in his ABC line), even though it's essentially a mash-up of superheroes and cop shows like Hill Street Blues and such.
DR AND QUINCH may be my favorite thing he ever wrote. Along with his Jack B Quick and Jonni Future stories (which I mainly like for the art), it's his work I most wish I could find collected. "Mind the oranges, Marlon!"
Edited by Glen Keith on 30 May 2012 at 7:26pm
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