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Paul Greer
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 18 August 2004
Posts: 14190
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 1
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Talk about dropping a bombshell! I would have loved to have seen a JB Minutemen cover or Night Owl. Heck, I would love to see JB's take on any of these characters.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133549
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 2
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I also do not hold WATCHMEN in the regards as others
I commented the other day in another thread that Paul Kupperberg has said he finds it frustrating that so many people think I am an a**hole. "You ARE and a**hole," he said, "but not for the reasons they think!" There is a parallel to this in WATCHMEN. So much of the praise directed toward that series seemed to flow from the wrong places. Particularly, civilian critics who had not read a comic book in decades (if ever) were AMAZED to find such pithy, probing, ADULT material there -- oblivious to what had been going on in American comics, and superhero comics in particular, for twenty years or so. At the same time, comicbook fans, whose awareness apparently extended no further than the edges of the pages of their favorite series, were blown away by concepts and ideas that were all to familiar to those of us who had read a book that didn't have pictures. It was all a mystery to me -- tho I loved Dave's art!
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36078
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 3
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John Byrne wrote:
| I find it very telling that the writer of the article has to "stack the deck" by referring to J. Michael Straczynski as a "former HE-MAN writer". I suppose if I HAD agreed to be involved in this, I would have been identified as the former WHEELIE AND THE CHOPPER BUNCH artist. |
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Agreed. I'm not a fan of JMS' work outside a few creator-owned titles, but the reference to HE-MAN certainly put me off the rest of the article. JMS has done enough work writing comics that supplying a 30 year old reference to slam his work on BEFORE WATCHMEN is intellectually dishonest.
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17700
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 4
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I also do not hold WATCHMEN in the regards as others...
It was all a mystery to me -- tho I loved Dave's art!
There it is.
I was okay with the story (until that bizarre ending), but the art
elevated the tale in a way that made it more enjoyable.
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Joe S. Walker
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 607
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 5
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It's lucky for Moore that he's not often identified as the writer/artist of ROSCOE MOSCOW and THE STARS MY DEGRADATION, two stupendously awful strips that ran c.1980 in Sounds, a UK music weekly.
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3462
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 6
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JB wrote:
| I've raised the question before, without seeing a satisfactory answer: has Moore actually created anything that was entirely his own? Not being snarky here, I promise. (After all, I make no claims to being Captain Originality!) |
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Up until very recently, I would have said Promethea, which features as its centerpiece a literal journey through the kaballah as a rising through the mystical solar system (allegorical to aspirations of the human spirit). Turns out that the structure and even the themes were borrowed from 'A Voyage to Artcurus' by David Lindsay. I have only my own ignorance to blame for this oversight, as Moore actually has a character weave the title of the book into a song, but since I didn't even know there was a reference to get, I completely missed it.
Moore's strengths are decidedly not those of a Kirby-esque font of originality. He's a synthesist, and a brilliant one. Which is why him getting uptight and getting others to rally to his defense on the basis of the same argument is baffling, when it's so patently obvious that he does exactly to other creators what he would rather they not do to his own work. And not just occasionally - it's the entire point of his canon of published works, the riffing on established and sometimes iconic characters.
Edited by Dave Kopperman on 28 May 2012 at 11:13am
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Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 11:24am | IP Logged | 7
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When I posted this link; the part of the article that caught my attention
was the comment that it is hard to find comics because they are
mostly sold in speciality stores and that the storylines aren't friendly to
new readers; two things mentioned on the board over and over again.
That plus the recycling old ideas and creators not wanting to share
their original stuff with Marvel and DC are some of the biggest
challenges for the comic industry.
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10942
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 8
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Kip : "When I posted this link; the part of the article that caught my attention was the comment that it is hard to find comics because they are mostly sold in speciality stores and that the storylines aren't friendly to new readers; two things mentioned on the board over and over again."
*****
That was my first take away from this -- JB was sounding the alarm bell in public comments long before many wanted to talk about it. A lot of what he said about the shrinking market has come to pass over the years.
I think his early criticism of the DSM is what led to some comic shop owner backlash. But now the problems have become conventional wisdom, and the real issue on everyone's plate is how to fix it.
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 9
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Is Moore really in any position to complain about the fact that he doesn't own and control Watchmen, when his original pitch was to use the Charlton characters themselves, before it became a set of pastiches?
If he'd used the Charlton characters, after D.C. bought them up, there would have been no reason for anyone to complain about Alan Moore not owning The Question, Blue Beetle and Captain Atom!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133549
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 10
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Turns out that the structure and even the themes were borrowed from 'A Voyage to Artcurus' by David Lindsay. I have only my own ignorance to blame for this oversight, as Moore actually has a character weave the title of the book into a song, but since I didn't even know there was a reference to get, I completely missed it. This is another mystery to me. If you "footnote" the source somewhere in the story, it's NOT plagiarism?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133549
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 11
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Is Moore really in any position to complain about the fact that he doesn't own and control Watchmen, when his original pitch was to use the Charlton characters themselves, before it became a set of pastiches?If he'd used the Charlton characters, after D.C. bought them up, there would have been no reason for anyone to complain about Alan Moore not owning The Question, Blue Beetle and Captain Atom! One of the things that has fascinated me, coming from the most dedicated fans of WATCHMEN, are the repeated declarations that these are NOT the Charlton characters, and that Moore's story has nothing to do with the Charlton characters. Yet the avatars are so obvious, and so NECESSARY to the tale being told. Without Captain Atom/Dr. Manhattan, where would the story be? Likewise without the Question/Rorschach? Blue Beetle/Night Owl? Nightshade/Silk Spectre. Etc. I really do not GET it!
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Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
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| Posted: 28 May 2012 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 12
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I was offered a cover, but declined.
++++
Curious: would you do a Watchmen commission?
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