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Erin Anna Leach Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 February 2006 Location: United States Posts: 746
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 1
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I don't see a problem with this at all. It just proves the John Byrne is one of the great comic book artists, and will go down in history as such. What is wrong with that?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133555
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 2
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I don't see a problem with this at all. It just proves the John Byrne is one of the great comic book artists, and will go down in history as such. What is wrong with that? •• Is that really what it proves, tho? Recently, a Frank Miller page from DKR sold for close to half a million dollars. Should we infer from this that Frank is seven and a half times greater than I? That his contribution to the field is that much greater than mine? Similarly, the price tag on my page is in the same stratospheric regions as prices I see for Jack Kirby originals. Is my place on the comicbook Olympus equal to Jack's? Sadly, what this really shows is that the same kind of madness which infected comics is now infecting comicbook art. And, as it did in comics, this madness is likely to seal out the people without the big bucks to spend. A hobby is becoming a business, which is the fastest way I know to self destruct. (And wait for it! A year, or two years, or five years from now, when the buyer tries to sell this piece and cannot get anything like the price s/he paid, because the market has shifted to Paul Smith's work, or someone else later than me --- well, then we can expect to be told "Byrne's stuff doesn't sell anymore.")
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13704
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 3
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Here's my guess:
When you talk about this kind of money going into a page of comic art it's got to be all about status. Being able to tell people you own this page and how awesome that makes you. I can't imagine it's all die hard comics fans bidding on these things. It's more like super rich people looking for cool "toys" to spend money on. Frank Miller's name has crept into pop culture's awareness so he's cool to own. The Dark Phoenix Saga and the X-Men in general have done the same so art from this era by JB is particularly interesting to own.
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Steve Ogden Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1263
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | 4
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Joe, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133555
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 5
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Y'know, whoever was doing the purchasing, I would draw some small solace if I thought the motivation was, indeed, that the pieces are "cool to own". But I fear that once we enter this level of spending (half a million for ONE PAGE??) we are talking about Art-as-Commodity.I don't imagine the owners of these works standing in front of them, as I sometimes do with pieces on my studio walls and, at least metaphorically, dancing a little jog and chirping This Is So Cool!!! I imagine the pieces in a safe deposit box, locked away like jewels or gold bullion, changing owners without said owners ever looking at anything but the money made.
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Dave Aikins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 July 2007 Location: United States Posts: 2110
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 6
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Don't you think it's both? When you have actors, or CEOs that are rich comic geeks, I can't believe they aren't doing at least a teeny weeny jig if and when they buy this stuff.
And then you have dopey folk that think it's a savings bond.
And then you have people that do a jig AND think it's a savings bond.
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Brian Peck Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1709
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 7
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I know a lot of collectors will go after a piece for pure nostalgia. I have paid above market value for a piece of original art because it was from a story I remembered reading growing up. Being tied when someone was growing up and can have a strong pull. What I pay for a page that has a strong nostalgia might seem crazy and a lot of money to other people. This can be the same for those who bid on the x-men page. They have a strong connection to the story and that particular page. The big difference between collecting comics and original comic art is OA is one of a kind. Its includes something created by the artists, visuals of the story and the dialog. Each of those can be a strong draw for a collector who grew up reading it. Being extreme wealthy doesn't mean you stop collecting nostalgia from your childhood.
Edited by Brian Peck on 17 November 2011 at 5:22pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133555
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 8
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When civilians find out I have a comicbook collection, their first questions are "What's the oldest comic you have?" and "What's the most valuable comic you have?" Not necessarily in that order.The walls of my Studio are covered with what has been called a "breathtaking" collection of original art. No civilian has ever asked me the "worth" of a piece. Most of the time, in fact, they don't even grasp that these are pieces of ORIGINAL ART. In their minds, the only thing comics exist for is to be valuable investments, and then only as comic books. But with these kinds of insane numbers for art, how long before that changes? All it took to create the "investment" mentality in comicbook collecting was a single article in The Wall Street Journal circa 1978, that reported old comics showed a greater return on the "ibvestment" than GOLD. This because an copy of MARVEL COMICS 1 had sold for $20,000. Quite the return on that 10¢ cover price. Except, of course, the seller hadn't paid 10¢. But the damage was done. And now comics that once sold for a nickel in back issue boxes in second hand bookstores are priced far, far, far beyond the reach of average collectors. And, as I have mentioned before, the level of insanity when it crosses into original art collection is the same. Even the language is the same. I once saw a book listing prices for original art that described some pieces as RARE. The Mona Lisa and a page of Rob Liefeld's YOUNGBLOOD are equally RARE. For each piece, their is only one.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 9
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Not that it necessarily applies to this page or any of the other high-priced comics pages, but I've read of cases where in fine art circles overbidding has been used as a way to move money from illegitimate to legitimate economic circles. What you would do if you owed somebody 100 thousand would be to have them put up a decent but low-priced piece of artwork, maybe with a one thosand to 10 thousand dollar price tag, and then buy it at auction for 100 thousand or more. So you've bought a 1 thousand dollar painting for 101 thousand, and your seller has an influx of 100 thousand cash that needs no further explanation. And if you sell it on at auction, there's a chance you might recoup some of that 100 thousand, at least get more than 1 thousand for it. As I've looked through some listings on ebay, I notice that often there is very little correlation between real art criteria (Historical significance of work or author, skill with which it's done, size, scarcity) and price. The ones that fetch the highest prices are usually the most well known or "hot" current artists. I mean, in what possible art context would a recent 8x12 one-figure color marker commission of a superheroine by Bruce Timm actually be worth roughly as much as a vintage Milton Caniff 22x28 "Terry and the Pirates" Sunday page? People are free to spend money however they like, but if I were going to spend 65K on original art I'd start with guys like Caniff, Crane, Raymond, Kubert, Foster, McManus, Herriman, Segar. And chances are I could get artwork from all of those and still have money left over. It's like if you could buy a dozen Rembrandts for the price of a Warhol or Lichtenstein. (No insult intended to Byrne/Austin, of course. )
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Jon Tremmeh Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 March 2009 Posts: 166
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 7:50pm | IP Logged | 10
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I mean, in what possible art context would a recent 8x12 one-figure color marker commission of a superheroine by Bruce Timm actually be worth roughly as much as a vintage Milton Caniff 22x28 "Terry and the Pirates" Sunday page? A lot of people who grew up on Batman: The Animated Series are now at the point in life where they have discretionary income. They're too young to have fond memories of a strip from the 30's and 40's, a commission is easy to save and plan for (compared to a coveted page suddenly showing up at auction) and, I'd imagine, all the good Caniff pages are spoken for.
Edited by Jon Tremmeh on 17 November 2011 at 7:50pm
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13704
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 11
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...and of course it's all so subjective. It's really just a couple bucks worth of ink and paper right?
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13704
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Posted: 17 November 2011 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | 12
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I mean, in what possible art context would a recent 8x12 one-figure color marker commission of a superheroine by Bruce Timm actually be worth roughly as much as a vintage Milton Caniff 22x28 "Terry and the Pirates" Sunday page?
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Here's a way to test the true personal value of art: which piece would you rather have? You can own it but you can never sell it and profit off of it. I'd rather have a Bruce Timm single figure commission. I enjoy Timm's work in animation and he means something to me. Caniff is a legendary name but means basically nothing to me personally. I'm only marginally familiar with Terry and the Pirates.
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